136 Sheena Meade – Clean Slate Initiative

Joshua B. Hoe interviews Sheena Meade about the Clean Slate Initiative

Full Episode

My Guest – Sheena Meade

Sheena Meade is the CEO of the Clean Slate Initiative, a national bipartisan coalition advancing policies to automatically clear all eligible arrest and conviction records across the United States. Prior to joining the Clean Slate Initiative, Sheena helped restore voting rights to 1.4 million people experiencing felony disenfranchisement as the Organizing Director for the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. Soon after her work with FRRC, she was a Criminal Justice Program Officer at Galaxy Gives.

Watch The Interview on YouTube

You can watch Episode 136 of the Decarceration Nation Podcast on our YouTube channel.

Notes From Episode 136 Sheena Meade

The book Sheena suggested was “Let My People Vote” by Desmond Meade

There have been millions of records cleared since Pennsylvania passed clean slate legislation.

Full Transcript

Hello and welcome to Episode 136 of the Decarceration Nation podcast, a podcast about radically reimagining America’s criminal justice system.

I’m Josh Hoe, and among other things, I’m formerly incarcerated; a freelance writer; a criminal justice reform advocate; a policy analyst; and the author of the book Writing Your Own Best Story: Addiction and Living Hope.

Today’s episode is my interview with Sheena Meade, about her work with the Clean Slate Initiative. Sheena Meade is the CEO of the Clean Slate Initiative, a national bipartisan coalition advancing policies to automatically clear all eligible arrest and conviction records across the United States. Prior to joining the Clean Slate Initiative, Sheena helped restore voting rights to 1.4 million people experiencing felony disenfranchisement as the Organizing Director of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. Soon after her work with FRC, she was a criminal justice program officer at Galaxy Gives. Welcome to the Decarceration Nation podcast Sheena Meade.

Sheena Meade

Thank you, finally, I made it here. Josh, I appreciate you having me. You have such a great podcast voice too.

Josh Hoe

Oh, thank you. You’re joining us from an exotic locale. Do you want to talk about the cool place that you’re in right now?

Sheena Meade

Yes, I am in South Africa. I’m in Johannesburg. And my husband is a Ford Foundation Global Fellow. And so they were having a meeting here this week. And I was like, Well, you’re not going without me. And so I came along in the cargo. And I’ve been working from South Africa. But yesterday, I got to enjoy going into town and going to the Apartheid Museum. So I’m here just to learn some history. And then connecting it to the work that we do.

Josh Hoe

As I said, I’m kind of jealous. I’m actually very jealous. I always ask the same first official question, how did you get from wherever you started in life, to where you are organizing to ensure voting rights were restored in Florida and eventually running the Clean Slate Initiative?

Sheena Meade

Well, I definitely did not wake up one morning and say I want to be this activist or, you know, I need to change the laws around criminal justice. You know, this really started from my childhood. My mother was very active in the labor movement. You know, she was a labor activist. She was a laborer, a worker who was in New Jersey. And she planted the seed really at a very young age. I remember being as young as six or seven years old, my mom pulled me out of school for us to go picket around the Capitol for worker rights. You know, she would take me out of school because she wanted me to be a part of that experience. It was important. And she planted those seeds. And when I was around about 10 or 11, I remember making sandwiches for the brothers getting on a bus for the Million Man March, that was the March where a million black men went to Washington DC, you know, just to show that they are a man and that their lives matter. You know, this is way before the Black Lives Matter movement happened. And my mom would keep me engaged in these issues. And my sister, Salondra was big on, you know, voter engagement and voter rights. And so, when I was a preteen when she was on the campaign, so like Operation Big Vote, just to get people out, just very nonpartisan, just telling people to power their voice, she would take me along. And so from that point, you know, in my teenage years, I got involved in community organizing and, and voting rights for black youth. I was a black youth vote coordinator, and I would go to all the Spring Bling, the Spring Break parties to go register voters, and I would go to the concerts. And I always think outside the box. And during that time, you know, I didn’t know about felon disenfranchisement, I knew nothing about it. I didn’t know what that word meant, you know, it wasn’t something we talked about.  Definitely, criminal justice wasn’t that sexy topic that everybody talks about now. And I was trying to register some voters on the beach, you know, at Spring Bling. And I remember a young brother saying to me, his exact words were: I’m a two-time felon, they won’t let me vote, they won’t allow me to vote. And that was my first interaction. And then a few times later, I heard somebody else come tell me they were not allowed to register to vote. And at this time, this was not something that they kind of prepared us for as we’re doing voter registration. And so I started looking into it and realized that there was a long process to try to get your voting rights back. And so that was the first seed planted and then, you know, eventually, I had my own lived experience, you know, getting locked up and meeting my husband, who was formerly incarcerated, and he had a vision to restore voting rights. And that’s what got me engaged in Amendment 4; Amendment 4 definitely paved the way for me to lead the Clean Slate Initiative.

Josh Hoe

Well, we’ve talked about Amendment 4 on the podcast before, oddly enough with your husband. But can you talk about from your perspective how that campaign started? And how you approached organizing the state of Florida? Not exactly a state that’s known for being great on criminal justice reform. But you did somehow manage to, you know, allow re-enfranchisement for many people across the state.

Sheena Meade

Yes. So I mean, it definitely was a vision that Desmond had, you know, and it was a vision that he had, and a lot of folks, you know, kind of said, Well, God bless you for great vision. But I doubt that you can make this happen. And really how I got involved in the organizing aspects, I was really on the side of the organization with returning citizens, a lot of the organizing work with the voters and people happened with a young lady named [Miller], I called her, you know, the wizard behind the curtain, she was one of the masterminds behind the movement that assisted Desmond and so she did a lot of the voter engagement. But the returning citizen side, you know, there was this donor who came along and said, Listen, you know, I want to give you some money to get petitions collected, because, you know, we had to collect over a million petitions to get it even on the ballot. And the way most campaigns engage petitioners when they try to get people on the ballot, you know, they go to the grocery store, they go by Walmart, they go in parking lots, they go to baseball games.

Josh Hoe

I may actually have been out in parking lots doing that, many times in my life.

Sheena Meade

Right. And it’s like, trying to like shoot at a ping pong, you’re trying to hope that somebody will stop to talk to you to get a signature. And then in Florida, you have to, it’s not just getting like a list of signatures on one page; it is one person, per petition, they got to be a registered voter in a certain district. And so I was just like, let the campaign do it that way. And I told Desmond, I want to go knock on doors to voters in low-propensity voter homes, and start talking to those voters. And when I started to do that, to get petitions signed, we realized one out of every three doors has someone who had a returning citizen in their home, there was a loved one who had a person that could not vote. And that’s when I was like, my light bulb went off. And I told them, this is how we organize, around loved ones. And so eventually, you know, we went to those doors, people are of course, I’m gonna vote for my loved one to be able to vote. And from there, we did like a Second Chance Sunday, where we mobilized 1000s of people who signed those petitions, who had loved ones, who were voters, to make sure that they showed up to the polls on behalf of their loved ones. And so we organized around bloodlines and family members.

Josh Hoe

Okay, so someone’s listening and starting to dream themselves, like Desmond did, of pulling off something really big. So often, the system and entrenched interests make big change seem impossible. What advice would you give to organizers as they start to try to think of how to fundamentally change the system?

Sheena Meade

You know, the first advice I’ll give Josh is just don’t give up. Don’t give up. Sometimes this work could be very tiresome. It could look like there’s not a light at the end of the tunnel. You know, doing this type of work takes years, it doesn’t happen overnight. We talked about Amendment 4, a lot of people talk about the success of Amendment 4, it was not just a year campaign, that was years in the making, there were a lot of dry times that came around. I mean, there were, to be honest, we were counting those 1000s of petitions at the home with our children, many days, having my mom’s Bingo friends come over to open up the envelopes, and feed them you know, having chart paper around at home or Desmond going around the state . . .  because he was tired on the road, going around the state collecting all the petitions from each Supervisor of Elections Office, and we have 64 counties in the state of Florida, we actually knew them by face and so that can get real discouraging. And we don’t have any money or any funding. So I would say don’t give up and don’t let anybody hijack your vision or your dream. You know, he was really intentional about making sure that we centered directly impacted people around us, and particularly how we talked about this issue, people over politics, and so you have to protect your interest, and protect your movement and protect your vision. So I will tell organizers to protect, protect the vision that you have and don’t give up and it gets tiresome, but you know, the great thing about this movement is that you’re never alone. There’s people who believe in you, people who will come, you know, walk alongside of you. There were 1000s of people who were waving a flag. You know, it kind of goes, like before we started this call, Josh, we talked about sometimes it gets tiring. You get tired around the podcast and have so much to do. But it’s just that one letter that somebody may write to say, Hey, I was listening to your podcast. That was the strength, I think that we found was, it was that one person who would randomly walk up to you, and say, I appreciate you doing this for my son or my daughter or my mother. And that will give you, you know, the fuel to keep going. So don’t give up.

Josh Hoe

One thing that I think we do sometimes is that we plan for the victory. And when we get the victory, we kind of forget that there’s more fighting that needs to be done. After you did the work on Amendment 4 the government and opponents worked overtime to try to circumvent all your good work. In retrospect, do you have any advice about what people should do to protect their good work after passage, instead of just getting to the finish line?

Sheena Meade

Yes, you know, at the Clean Slate initiative, which I know we’re gonna get into and talk about, definitely took a piece of the blueprint out of A4 around this and a learning lesson. One thing I will say is that, because Amendment 4 had built a constituent of people from all walks of life, all political persuasions, across the country, who believed in second chances, over 5 million people who voted Yes on 4, is when, you know, the government came to a . . . .  like those elected officials was hearing from people from their communities, their voters was like, Look, we voted yes on this, leave it alone. And so a movement was built to help defend, you know, the constitutional amendment. And the thing I will tell folks to protect their good work is think about implementation from the beginning. The opportunity had come for Amendment 4, and we were so . . . . and just passing it, trying to pass and trying to work, it was all hands on deck like no one had time to think about afterwards, we got to just win this thing. And let’s just get over the finish line. And I remember when we won Amendment 4, I had all these dreams and inspiration shots, I told my husband, I know you’re taking me to Hawaii. Our whole life and our marriage at that point has been all centered around Amendment 4. And I thought we had a moment to breathe. And we were sitting back with Neil and some of the other colleagues and people who are leaders of the movement, and the phone started ringing. And it was, because this was November. And so we’re going on holiday break, and we think we’re gonna have a holiday break. And folks are like, okay, reporters started calling, the law gets implemented January 7, what is next? What is going to happen? And realize, like, all the wait, I saw Neil and Desmond, like, we were not taking a break. They’re like, No, we got to figure out this implementation. We don’t know what’s gonna happen. And so, you know, at the Clean Slate Initiative, we think about implementation the moment we start writing legislation, and working with our partners from the front end, and making sure that it’s implementable, making sure we could defend the implementation, make sure that the things are there. So I will say, think about it at the beginning.

Josh Hoe

We’ve talked about Clean Slate on this podcast, I think the last time was two years ago. Could you talk a little bit about it, just to remind people what Clean Slate is and how it differs from traditional expungement, before we get into the Clean Slate Initiative specifically?

Sheena Meade

Yes, so a little about expungement. In all 50 states, there is some sort most well, just about all 50 states, because Hawaii doesn’t have a mechanism yet, just about in all 50 states, there are laws that allow people who is looking to get their record clear to petition to get their record clear, to petition if they’re eligible, based on their offense, the amount of time they’ve been crime-free, to petition to get their record clear. What the Clean Slate Initiative is, is taking that burden off the person and taking that burden off the individual and moving it to the state and making it automatic. So if you’re eligible, that your record automatically gets cleared after you’re crime-free for the period of time that the state says you have to be crime free.

Josh Hoe

And what is the Clean Slate Initiative organization?

Sheena Meade

We are a bipartisan national movement that works with state partners in organizations and coalitions to pass Clean Slate laws and help them get implemented by automatic record clearance.

Josh Hoe

And what makes Clean Slate, when you boil it down to when you’re giving your elevator pitch, what is so important about Clean Slate expungement as opposed to the petition process?

Sheena Meade

One thing that’s so important, Josh, is that you know, once a person is eligible, their record should be able to be automatically cleared. So right now, across the country, we know there’s 70 to 100 million people that have some sort of arrest or conviction on their record. There are 30 million people out of that 70 to 100 million that are eligible today, eligible under the law, to get their record cleared, and less than 10%, has actually tried to pursue that. And people may say why? One: they may not even know they’re eligible. Because of the time periods and the wait, it’s cumbersome and expensive. Like Louisiana, you have to pay $550 per offense to get your record clear. In Missouri, you have, you know, based on the judge’s discretion, even if you’re eligible. So there’s all these nuances. And so, it’s so important because what the Clean Slate law does is once a person is crime-free, based on the state’s definition of crime-free, and they’re eligible, the burden is no longer on a person, they don’t have to go petition, they don’t have to go running around with law papers and get a lawyer and pay all these fees. The record will automatically be clear.

Josh Hoe

And how many states have Clean Slate laws now? As opposed to just, you said everyone but Hawaii has the regular expungement?

Sheena Meade

Yes. Well, can I go back to the other question, because you asked why is it so important? Yeah, one thing I forgot, you know, we all face in our country, you know, applying for a job, applying for college, applying for health background checks. So 90% of employers, 80% of landlords and 60% of colleges and universities use background checks for the screening of applicants. And this is also another reason why the Clean Slate Initiative is so important to people’s lives because people were being left out of the workforce, left out of being able to get their education, and also getting, you know, secure housing. We have how many states to this day, we have 10 states that have enacted Clean Slate laws across the country, which is really amazing since 2018, since Pennsylvania passed the first law.

Josh Hoe

And what states are actively working on passing Clean Slate legislation right now?

Sheena Meade

Yes, we’re in a couple of states. So but I’ll give you a couple just a name like Kentucky is a state that is working on passing Clean Slate legislation, Missouri, Illinois, Texas. There are a lot of states working on Clean Slate in different phases, you know, trying to get to automation. Oh, so we’re about 12 to 16 states this year.

Josh Hoe

And do you have any stories you’d like to share from the frontlines of those states, places that you’ve been or where this has happened? I know in our state, you know, we passed it a couple years ago, and it’s waiting to go into effect, hopefully in April.

Sheena Meade

I’m excited about that. You know, Michigan, when I came on to Clean Slate, Michigan was the first state that you know, had a Clean Slate initiative pass. So it was exciting to be a part of that and be a part of all the celebrations and webinars, which I held because it was during COVID. So I’m looking forward to the in-person parties that we could do. And that’s why we came to Michigan last year for our convening. Um, you know, some stories that I could share, you know, one story I would share is, I just left Utah, I’ll be going back to Utah, because the NBA All-Star event is happening. If anybody listens to basketball, but the Utah Jazz and the NBA Social Justice Coalition, you know, supported the Clean Slate Initiative, the Utah County State Initiative in Utah, and also the national organization. And they held an expungement clinic there in Utah a couple of weeks ago. And it was a massive expungement clinic, also bringing awareness to the folks who are still not eligible through automation. You know, they did a petition-based process, but it was trying to bring some awareness around why we need automation because it was hundreds of people who came in trying to get the records clear and also tap into resources. But I met a young lady there who came from Nevada, so I didn’t realize it was so close to Utah, but she was a returning citizen, someone who’s directly impacted. And she was looking forward to getting her . . . . record cleared in Utah, but she was held back because of something that happened in Nevada. She is a superintendent, got a great contract at the airport as a contractor and it was preventing her from being promoted to get other contracts because her record cannot be clear. So that’s one person I think about. You know, I brought some stakeholders to Florida where I live and also where I have a record, and cannot get my record cleared until Clean Slate comes to Florida, because you’re only eligible to get one non-conviction cleared in the state of Florida. At this time, there are millions of people who are eligible right now who [could] have full record clearance if they could just get that one off the record. But I was at an expungement clinic with FRRC, and with the state attorneys in the public defender’s office. And while we were packing up leaving this elderly couple start walking in the, into the community center, and I’m thinking like, they cannot be here to get their record clear they must be here for something else, and he was an elderly man, which I know now was a really bad case of Parkinson’s and he was literally stumbling. So me, and another person ran up to him to kind of hold them up and sit them down in the chair. And the one guy went to go get some water, his wife was still with him. And I was like, you know, how can I help you? Like, where do I go to get my record clear. And I was just shocked. And I was like, you want to get your record cleared. And he was like year, for both of us. And just only thing I could think about is that, you know, many of the people that I saw that day were there getting their record clear, like I said, because they’re trying to get housing and trying to get employment, the thing that I can think about is just that this guy didn’t want to die being defined by his record. Right? Because, you know, I can’t judge, you know, maybe he does need a job or housing. But I doubt that, and just the humanity of it, that people don’t want to be defined by a past mistake. You see people who are trying to get the record clear that had a record that they like 30 years on a record, 20 years, and they’ve moved past it. And that is shameful. And one thing I learned was that some of the folks were driving 30 miles outside the community to come to the expungement clinic, because they don’t want to run into a neighbor, because of the shame that they carry. So these are the stories that I see and I hear. But also the success stories like back in Utah, where a young lady say, you know, getting her record clear meant the world to her. She’s now a homeowner, she’s now the executive director of the Clean Slate Utah, Destiny. And so there’s a lot of success stories that I’m hoping that we can capture around our country now that, you know, we’re coming out of this pandemic and able to meet people face to face, but there’s so many success stories, but there’s so much work we have to do.

Josh Hoe

That’s really powerful. You know, me, I always talk about how, for so many people this would, in Michigan, it would mean for the first time they could walk into a job interview and not feel like they were gonna get asked the question, any of us who’ve been through this and have a record, know what that feels like, or like for the first time being able to walk into an apartment complex and apply just for an apartment and not feel like you already know you’re not going to get it. You know, people have been going through that for decades and decades. And we know the research says that if you’ve stayed crime-free for a certain amount of time, you actually have less chance of committing a new crime than people who have never committed a crime before that. You know, I mean, these are people who have done everything right and deserve to be able to walk in and have their head held up when they just are trying to get a place to live.

Sheena Meade

I’ve been there with my husband. It was actually about three and a half, 4 years ago, I think there was even an article about it, you know, we, this is after the success of Amendment 4, you know, Desmond, you know, his profile is elevated. It was the same year that Desmond got  a proclamation making Desmond Meade Day, I think it’s like September, September 10. And we’re going around looking, you know, we wanted to move into another home for our children, and we was trying to rent a home. And I knew his credit was right. I’m like, I don’t know how good my credit was. I know his credit was at least right, we could get into these homes. And Josh, we started applying and the kids were so excited. They packed up everything down to the spoons and forks. I was like, kids actually we need to leave one pot out, like but they packed up everything they was just so excited. And after going into multiple houses, we had an agent and you know, we see the home, we fall in love, come home to the kids, we think we found a home. The lady say the owner decided to go a different direction. And after a few of those, the owner decides to go a different direction, I’m like, What the hell is happening here. And I’ve never seen, you know, my husband kind of have this moment of shame or, like you know, like holding his head down thinking like, are we getting denied because of my record? And I’m not even thinking at this time, Josh, because there’s millions of people like me, who are not even thinking about something they did years ago. And as I tell this story, it’s not until this moment that I’m thinking maybe it was my record. Maybe it was the check that bounced 15 years ago that was preventing us, like I never thought that our record might have been the thing holding us back. But the evidence is there. And so you know, it wasn’t until like finally I got to this last home. I didn’t even go to the agent. I wrote these owners a long letter, email. And I try to humanize this before my application goes in to get spit out. And I wrote a letter about who I was, who my husband was, and how my children play football. And the owner, you know, responded and she still said, Well, we still, you know, do the application and to find out the application still spit us out. She said, Oh, well, the computer did that. Even though it says if it has past seven years, they don’t pay attention. The computer is the one who’s making that decision, people toss it out. And you know, she went past that. And we eventually got the house. But imagine if I had to go through all those steps, and I have some sort of privilege. Like, it just angered me think about all the 1000s of people who are trying to find homes that don’t have that opportunity, or just don’t got though, we’re off to just say, I’m about to write a letter like nobody should have to go through that to just find safe and affordable housing with a family. So my story is not unique;[there are] millions of people who’re going through this today.

Josh Hoe

Yeah, I own a condo, but when I first got the condo, there were a bunch of lean years when I first got out, really lean years. And I, you know, it’s embarrassing, but I had to talk to the person who was my agent to be like, Should I be worried about them? Can they turn me down just for my record? Can they, you know, I just, you know, you don’t know these things, and you’re so used to being turned down. I mean, I remember, you’re not being able to get an apartment, not being able to get jobs, not being able to whatever. And so, you know, luckily it works out, you know, sometimes, but that’s a lot of stress. I don’t think everybody necessarily always understands how stressful having to walk into every official part of your life, and have that on your back is, and so many people go through that every year.

Sheena Meade

Yeah, I mean, even going to apply for college. After I got married, I was like, let me go back to school. I wanted to finish my college education. And I went and I had to check the box. And then once I check the box, I’m like, Okay, check the box, but then like, Okay, now go get all this paperwork. I’m like, go get the paper. Yeah, go get the deposition, go get us the final deposition of the case. And so I had to drive two and a half hours to that county, get extra papers, pay for the papers, come back, go through an appeals process. I’m just trying to get my associate’s degree. And so, you know, again, that was in those moments, I didn’t realize how much that was wearing on me mentally, emotionally, on my children or my finances. But yeah, I mean, I’m just trying to change that; people shouldn’t have to go through that when they turn a new leaf, and they are just trying to move on with their lives.

Josh Hoe

In most of the states where Clean Slate has passed, the legislation has been bipartisan. I think that sometimes that gets, you know, people don’t look so highly upon bipartisanship. But could you talk about why it’s so important, and how both sides of the aisle have bought in on Clean Slate.

Sheena Meade

Yeah, I would just say that this issue has been a common sense policy for both sides of the aisle, it is a policy people get behind. I definitely say Clean Slate initiative laws are the people over politics type of policies that people like to get behind. Because it impacts so many people Josh. I don’t care if I’m walking through Democratic halls or Republican halls, talking to legislators, going through an office, I have not yet gone to one office in DC, where someone has not, after I’m sharing my story, will share stories from the field, there’s someone says, you know, what, my buddy from college, my cousin, or myself; I’ve met congresspeople who have their own stories. And so it is definitely an issue that folks get behind, there is definitely an economic argument behind this, you know, bringing taxpayers back into the base. It’s a workforce development issue. It’s just an issue that people get behind. I mean, there’s so many different committees that get behind this issue, because it intersects with so many issues that folks care about.

Josh Hoe

And do you have any feeling about . . . . I get that everybody on both sides of the aisle, we have been able to get people to support it. But is there something about bipartisanship itself? I guess the story I always heard when I was in college was that studying politics, was that, you know, one of the things about bipartisan legislation is it makes it more durable, things like that, you know, so many of the states are purple or red are the reasons why we have to at least work, we have to start from a bipartisan place to get things done.

Sheena Meade

Yes, I definitely agree. Let me tell you, even going into blue states, where people will make the assumption that this is an issue that gets easily passed in a blue state, when I go to talk to legislators or advocates in blue states and tell them that Oklahoma, that Utah has passed Clean Slate, that is what it takes their attention, like really. And people, they want to learn more, they want to, people want to work together. But as much as we have a lot of division in our country and stuff gets polarized, people want to see stuff that they could come together on and work together. Like there was so much love when Amendment 4 passed, and people came together and Desmond likes to say love won the day. People have that when they come together around an issue that they could get behind together and work across the aisles. I don’t believe that people always want to be so divided. Like, you know, I believe, you know, I think that’s why people like Clean Slate as the issue. People like to come together, they could come together on this issue. It is more durable, there’s much more buy-in. And, you know, that’s why we haven’t seen so much opposition or implementation issues, because, you know, we have so much support moving this legislation across the finish line.

Josh Hoe

That’s interesting that you say that, because, you know, one of the things is that we’ve seen is, you see a lot of stories about criminal justice reform, and a lot of people saying, Wow, criminal justice reform, you know, [it’s] bad for whatever reason, a lot of anecdotal stories, but what you don’t really ever see is the stories of the success. And I know, in, for instance, Pennsylvania, millions, and I mean, millions with an M, of records have been successfully cleared (60 million, I think) yeah! What can we do to make sure that these kinds of stories are the ones that people hear? Because all they’re hearing, unfortunately, is a lot of times negative stories, and most of those aren’t even true. How many people do you think around the country have heard the story about what’s happening in Pennsylvania? I know they’re trying to advertise that point.

Sheena Meade

Yeah, there’s two parts of the story, the success of the legislation passing. But the story that we have to tell is also the humanizing part Josh, like what happens when someone doesn’t have a Clean Slate, because I think that becomes shocking to people. Like, when you give this test to people, how many people are removed from trying to get housing, employment, jobs, or one or two children have a parent with a record? When you tell people how many people have a record, how easy it is for somebody to have a record, how it sticks with them, people are like that’s just messed up, right? And then you show them how it impacts on their community or a person and how it just trickles around. And then we show them the solution, like what happened to Pennsylvania, that’s when people really get excited. So it is also telling the other side of the story, right? around how mass incarceration has impacted our country and our communities, and then how we have solutions to fix it. And so it’s telling the whole story. But you know, I’m committed to telling the stories of the successes of Pennsylvania, and Michigan as we start implementing there, and Utah, but it’s also like the narrative change work that we have to do as a movement, like what you’re doing [with] Decarceration Nation, coming on podcasts, talking about, capturing real people’s stories. And, you know, and also get legislators, lift them up when they do right by passing legislation like this because they love the, you know, to be toted up on great legislation that they pass in their communities and supporting them, and our organizations and partners, when legislation passed. So I think we just have to all do it together, and just make sure that we’re pushing to tell the stories. And now that, you know, in this new season, where we’re able to, again, capture stories, get out there on the ground, I think there’s an opportunity for us to like really share the success of Clean Slate and how it could impact millions of lives generationally.

Josh Hoe

You said earlier that you had your first convening in Michigan last year, which luckily, I was able to attend. You’re having your second National Convening in early June in Oklahoma. Would you like to talk about that event and what people should be looking forward to? Also why Oklahoma?

Sheena Meade

We had so much fun in Detroit.

Josh Hoe

I should probably mention, I spent a lot of my life in Oklahoma. My parents, my family all live there.

Sheena Meade

So we know we’ll see you in Oklahoma then right? Um, yeah. Oklahoma, why Oklahoma? We want to show the contrast in wins; we were in Michigan, which is considered a blue state. And now we’re going to a red state where we have to assess and Oklahoma is starting to implement, you know, Clean Slate there. And we have some great advocates, we talked about bipartisanship,  that came together that are very unlikely bedfellows, they came together to pass Clean Slate and really excited to go there and convene our advocates, directly impacted people, stakeholders and really come together and show that this is a movement that’s happening across the country, and bringing people together to learn lessons like, you know, learning from the coalitions in Michigan and Utah and even bring in together, and maybe this year, some agency folks, you know, in learning and researchers, and so it’s a great opportunity, I’m looking forward to us really bringing a lot more people together, I think we had about 175 people last year, our first time. And we were just like, you know, let’s just do this thing. We just took a leap of faith. And so this year, we’re looking for 200 to 250 people to come together in Oklahoma, and really hoping to really get folks excited about what’s ahead in all the new states, especially states where we are not actively working, who are interested in Clean Slate, we want them to come to the table as well, so that they can learn and really understand what makes good Clean Slate laws.

Josh Hoe

You know, I forgot to ask this a little bit earlier. But you know, one of the things that’s really important to getting things done is getting a good team of people together. And I know you’ve spent a lot of time doing that. Do you want to talk a little bit about the team you have, and how you think about putting a team together to do this kind of work?

Sheena Meade

Well, we have, let me tell you, I have a kickass, I can say that? a kick-ass team.

Josh Hoe

Year, that’s one of the nice things about a podcast.

Sheena Meade

We have a kick-ass team as a Clean Slate initiative. We are a small but mighty group, but we’re standing. Um, you know, Josh, when you and I met, it was just like myself and like three other people. And by the end of the year, we probably will be staffed up to 30 folks by the end of the year. And so we’re bringing on, we just hired a Legislative Director, I’m so excited about, a Research Director, that’s gonna really dig into some of the research. We have our campaigns team that digs in. But it’s not just about our team, it’s about the teams that we build and bridge gaps together in the States. And so the secret sauce about the Clean Slate Initiative is not just our team, it is how we work with state partners, it is really coming into a state, work with people that’s on the ground who’s been doing this work for years, who want Clean Slate legislation, who has relationships on the ground, who wants to move legislation, and bringing them together with business, faith community, directly impacted groups, grassroots groups, and advocates to bring together a very strong, durable coalition that can move legislation. So really the secret sauce – as much as our team wants to take credit, and we are kick-ass – it is working with these brave state partners on a state level. And our national partners, we have some great national partners from CAP (Center for American Progress) to Right on Crime, to ACU (American Conservative Union Foundation). And so we have a broad coalition, I think that’s a really unique thing about the Clean Slate Initiative.

Josh Hoe

We’ve just gotten past, thankfully, an election season where criminal justice was often on the ballot. You know, we’ve talked a lot about specific parts of the movement. But do you have any thoughts on where we are as a movement, and what we’re going to need to do an entire, like criminal justice reform movement across the country to get past this never-ending politics of tough on crime that just seems to like, no matter what the facts are, we’re gonna hear the same stories over and over again.

Sheena Meade

Yeah, if anybody out there knows the answer, y’all call me, let me know. Cuz I don’t.  We’re all trying to figure out how to get past this narrative. And, you know, to be honest, you know, ever since the elections ended, you don’t hear all this tough-on-crime stuff anymore. As much.. It’s like the plug got pulled, it was like, what happened? And so, you know, I just think we just have to do better in counteracting those messages and those narratives and get out there and tell our stories and, you know, in places where, you know, if crime is rising, but we’re also we’re not, we’re not saying that you know, crime is not happening in places like it’s not us denying it, but it’s also let’s talk about the reforms we have done that help lower recidivism, and also lower the crime rate and how things are better and how recidivism is low. Like we have to do better telling our story successes, kind of go back to what you said earlier, like what’s happened in Pennsylvania, that we talked about all the jobs that people have now, have we talked about all the opportunities that are now there? And so I just think, you know, media and movies and stuff sensationalizes stuff and then in the elections times it just bubbles up, but I will say that after the elections happen, I haven’t heard as much of this tough-on-crime. And it’s unfortunate because we see, because of the tough-on-crime narrative, that legislators and elected officials shy away from passing really good reforms because they’re worried about getting reelected. And so how can we work with our elected officials and also, you know, work with them around this narrative stuff and give coverage and stuff? So we’re all trying to figure it out, Josh.

Josh Hoe

That’s definitely true. So what else should people be looking forward to from the Clean Slate Initiative in 2023? And beyond?

Sheena Meade

Well, I will say that there’s gonna be some big announcements coming around the Clean Slate Initiative, prior to our convening. The biggest thing is that, you know, we have momentum, there are states that are reaching out to us left and right, and states that we’re working with, and we realized that we do not want to stop until every state is on a pathway to automation, until we give folks a second chance to get their records automatically clear. So 2023 and beyond, we’re looking to really move the federal legislation, there’s an opportunity on the federal level, where there’s no mechanism to get your record cleared or petition to get your record cleared at the federal level. And so we’re really excited about trying to see some more movement with our national Clean Slate Act bill, the Fresh Start Act, and working in states across the country. So I just tell folks if you want to get involved in this movement, to definitely go to cleanslateinitiative.org [and] we’ll connect you with our active campaigns, some of our great partners on the ground, if you want to learn more about the work that we’re doing.

Josh Hoe

Earlier you mentioned the Million Man March. And so I always ask this question at the end, about books that people want to recommend, but I first want to say that everyone should check out the Spike Lee movie Get On The Bus, which is about the Million Man March or taking the trip to the Million Man March. It’s a movie I’ve always enjoyed. But I do like to ask people if there are any criminal justice-related books that they might recommend to our listeners. Do you have any favorite books?

Sheena Meade

I do have a favorite book Josh. It may surprise you, but it’s Let My People Vote. It is a love story. It is by Desmond Meade. And it is on Audible as well. And I would tell folks, I would encourage folks, you know, who like I don’t got time to read another book right now. But you have time while you’re driving to work or while you’re working at your office to listen to the Audible. It’s in Desmond’s voice. But you know, it is not just about criminal justice, it was about people coming together around the issue that they care about, around second chances, around love, that ultimately gave 1.4 million people back the right to vote. And so it is definitely an inspiring book – to let you know that you know, we can talk to people from across the aisle, folks unlikely bedfellows to make change in our world. And I definitely, you know, encourage folks to check out Let My People Vote.

Josh Hoe

I don’t know if people know this or not. For the people who watch on YouTube, this bookshelf behind me, I switch around the books that are on the camera. And there have been times when I definitely put that book out there. And I’ll do it again. Because it is a very good book. So I always ask the same last question. What did I mess up? What question should I have asked you, but did not?

Sheena Meade

I think you’ve asked a lot of questions. But you didn’t ask me how does my having a record impact my life.

Josh Hoe

Well, let’s pretend I asked it. Let’s hear your answer.

Sheena Meade

Yes, so it wasn’t until this year, Josh, that I decided to take the journey. And I’m going to probably blog the journey to actually try to get my record clear. And I think that it was something that I kind of put in the back of my mind, I knew it impacted me but I’ve been blessed to be able to have employment, more so like in the movement-type spaces where you don’t have to always check the boxes, you’re not checking boxes, right. They’re looking for people with lived experience who wanted to do the work. But it has been his thing that I didn’t realize that what a lot of shame, and never really talked about it to round to my kids, and being able to lead the Clean Slate Initiative, I’ve been able to kind of unlock that for me to really talk about my own record and how I got my how I got my record and how it impacted myself, my children, you know, my career, going to school, and now I understand directly that pain that it can bring, having a record and I try to make sure I don’t let that fear lead me as I’ve tried to push forward in the work that I do with the Clean Slate Initiative. So if that was one question, it will be that, because I often don’t get asked because sometimes people may not assume that I have a record, it is not something we lead with, it is not a look that you have, but you know, there are many people that look like me that may be CEOs in business or in a career, married and kids are grown, college degrees but still have this …. for shame that sticks with them. And so that is how my record has impacted me in the past. But now it’s giving me fuel. Make sure that again, 70 to 100 million people have a chance to get a second chance.

Josh Hoe

That’s a great place to finish this up. Thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I hope you have a great time in Johannesburg.

Sheena Meade

Josh, I appreciate you finally having me on. I know I kind of stalked you and chased you around. And Detroit was like what? another Meade? it’s good to get a handle on Twitter. But I’m a fan of your work. And so I appreciate being on the podcast. Continue to do great work you’re doing; you’re getting stories of real people out there.

Josh Hoe

Well, thanks so much. And I really am glad we finally . . . I’m sorry it took so long to get you on.

Josh Hoe

And now my take.

Thanks so much to my friend Sheena Meade for joining me this week. There are few more impactful policies than Clean Slate for helping people to get their lives back on track.

Today I have a personal announcement. After nearly 4 years at Safe and Just Michigan, I’ve decided to take a job as Criminal Justice Policy Manager at dream.org. Unless I messed up getting this episode produced, today was my first day at this new job. This was a very hard decision for me. Working at Safe and Just Michigan was a real honor and a privilege, and I love everyone that I’ve worked with. I’ll miss the entire team and all of the great work we were doing together. I’m also very excited to start working with the amazing team at dream.org starting with my good friend and frequent Decarceration Nation guest, Janos Marton. I’m fired up to start this new chapter in my life and get to work with formerly incarcerated activists all across the country to make real change happen.

As always, you can find the show notes or leave us a comment at decarcerationnation.com. If you want to support the podcast directly, you can do so from patreon.com/decarceration nation. For those of you who prefer to make a one-time donation, you can now go to our website and make a one-time donation. Thanks to all of you who have joined us from Patreon or have given a donation. You can also support us in non-monetary ways by leaving a five-star review from iTunes or add us on Stitcher, Spotify or from your favorite podcast app. Make sure and add us on social media and share our posts across your networks. Thanks so much for listening to the DecarcerationNation podcast. See you next time.

Decarceration Nation is a podcast about radically re-imagining America’s criminal justice system. If you enjoy the podcast we hope you will subscribe and leave a rating or review on iTunes. We will try to answer all honest questions or comments that are left on this site. We hope fans will help support Decarceration Nation by supporting us on Patreon.