Joshua B. Hoe interviews Michael Deegan McCree about his criminal justice reform work and about cannabis justice.
Full Episode
My Guest – Michael Deegan McCree
Michael Deegan McCree is the Senior Impact Strategist at the Last Prison Project. Before joining the Last Prisoner Project, Michael was fighting to end mass incarceration at the Bail Project where he fought pretrial incarceration and the cash bail system. He also worked at Dream Core Justice, where he helped to lead the legislative campaign that passed the First Step Act through Congress in 2018. In the following year, he would help to pass the Dignity for Incarcerated Women legislation in four states, in addition to helping to write and pass the Primary Caretakers Act of 2019 in the State of California.
Watch The Interview on YouTube
You can watch Episode 124 from our YouTube channel, and if you enjoy it, please add and like the channel.
Notes from Episode 124 Michael Deegan McCree
Check out the Last Prisoner Project website.
The book that Michael suggested was Locking Up Our Own by James Forman Jr.
Full Transcript
Joshua Hoe
Hello and welcome to Episode 124 of the Decarceration Nation podcast, a podcast about radically reimagining America’s criminal justice system.
I’m Josh Hoe, and among other things, I’m formerly incarcerated; a freelance writer; a criminal justice reform advocate; a policy analyst; and the author of the book Writing Your Own Best Story: Addiction and Living Hope.
Today’s episode is my interview with Michael Deegan McCree, about his work in criminal justice reform and cannabis justice. Michael Deegan McCree is the Senior Impact Strategist at the Last Prison Project. Before joining the Last Prisoner Project, Michael was fighting to end mass incarceration at the Bail Project where he fought pretrial incarceration and the cash bail system. He also worked at Dream Core Justice, where he helped to lead the legislative campaign that passed the First Step Act through Congress in 2018. That sounds kind of familiar. In the following year, he would help to pass the Dignity for Incarcerated Women legislation in four states, in addition to helping to write and pass the Primary Caretakers Act of 2019 in the State of California. Welcome to the Decarceration Nation podcast, Michael!
Michael Deegan McCree
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been a longtime listener, a huge fan of your work outside of this podcast. So really happy to be on here to have a conversation with you today.
Joshua Hoe
I always ask the same first question. How did you get from wherever you started in life to where you were working to pass legislation and ultimately working at the Last Prisoner Project?
Michael Deegan McCree
That’s a good question. And depending on how I answer, can be a heavy one. But I think there are a lot of factors that played into how I got to where I am today and dedicated to ending mass incarceration. A big part of my story is that I’m adopted. And through that experience, I was directly impacted. One of my birth parents was incarcerated for a portion of time. And so from a very young age, I was directly impacted but was not really aware of this fact. And so as I grew up and went to high school and went to college, I did grow up in a household that was very politically involved, very social justice-involved. I grew up in the East Bay in Oakland, California, where I think it’s just kind of a culture, right, where a lot of people are involved in social justice. But as I graduated, and I got older, I was lucky enough to work for a couple of different organizations and members who were really focused on justice reform. But also, as I was coming up, really early in my career, I’d say actually right after college, I was dealing with a lot of mental health issues. And I was trying to, to self-medicate, and deal with it myself instead of getting help. And I really started heavily drinking and using drugs. And one night that led to, to my arrest and to my incarceration, pre-trial. And so, you know, that had a huge impact on me, on my life, and the work that I decided I wanted to do when I got into my career. And kind of fast forward a bit and put me in a place where I was a staff member for State Senator Nancy Skinner in California. She represents the Ninth Senate District and is a really, really important progressive legislator in the State. And in 2017, we were working on a piece of legislation, really, it was a resolution to end the felony murder rule in California, and the organization that happened to be pushing this resolution in California was DreamCorps Justice, formerly Cut50. And I got to work not just with our staff, but alongside their staff at the time, Jessica Jackson and Alex Gudich. And for me, it was the first time where I was working on policy that not only represented my beliefs and my views but also represented a portion of who I was and what my story was. And I got to see firsthand the power of directly-impacted advocacy and directly-impacted legislative work, and the power of storytelling. I think for many who have been formerly incarcerated, or who have been directly impacted, those stories bring a lot of shame. And they bring a lot of guilt and the portions of ourselves that we hide, right? And that was the first place where it was the opposite. It was no, your story is your superpower, right? The failures that be of the criminal legal system and the intersecting systems, there’s a reason for how you ended up where you ended up. And that story needs to be told. And so after that resolution passed, how emotional I felt, how fulfilled, I felt, how empowered and accomplished I felt, I knew that criminal justice reform was the avenue I needed to walk down as an advocate, and become more of an expert on so that I could play my role. And so you know, since then, I reached out to Cut50, to see if there was a way I could become more involved. I was really lucky to be hired on as their Policy Associate.
And that really, I always say, was where I got my feet wet, and I learned how to swim. The leaders of that organization – you know, Louis L. Reed, Topeka K. Sam, Jessica Jackson, and so many others, taught me how to use my story, and also how to develop myself as it related to understanding policy a little bit more, but then also find my skills of using my voice and being an advocate for the overall movement. And so, you know, that then led me into working at the Bail Project where I was able to do some pretrial incarceration work and fighting to end cash bail, which, you know, is so close to my heart, because that was more aligned with my story. And the experience that I had, and then, you know, I was able to work with other organizations through this position of being the National Partnerships Coordinator and Policy Analyst. And that’s how I started to work with the Last Prisoner Project. You know, they had hosted an education raiser where Reform Alliance, which is another great organization, LPP, and then the Bail Project, talked about the different avenues of the movement, right, parole and probation, pretrial incarceration, resentencing, and automatic expungement in cannabis justice policy. And I really became interested in the work that they were doing at LPP because, it being three-fold of direct advocacy, policy reform work, and reentry work as a proof of concept for communities of color, and impoverished communities, and really trying to shrink the footprint of incarceration in this country became a huge interest to me and so, you know, I feel like I’ve hopped around as it relates to the different portions of our system that we’d like to see abolished, we’d like to see reformed, but it’s been a really great experience, and I get to meet people like you, who are doing this great work and, and have these great conversations and learn about experiences and stories. And, you know, I don’t want to speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself and say that it’s also been a really healing experience, to find, to find my folks and fight for the ending of mass incarceration in this country.
Joshua Hoe
I’ve wanted to have you on for a while because while I have talked about drugs in general, I’ve not really done any episodes about marijuana justice. Can you talk a little bit about the history of the criminal enforcement of marijuana laws in this country?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah. So, you know, cannabis justice finds itself within a category that you just said that you have talked a bit about, which is the War on Drugs, right. And what I think we like to concentrate on when it comes to cannabis justice, is the fact that as a part of the War on Drugs that highly targeted impoverished communities, communities of color, and placed Draconian sentencing, as it related to those defined defenses, as it relates to marijuana justice. We’re in a place where we lived in a prohibition era, right, where the “tough on crime” policies applied, where mandatory minimums applied. And where enhanced sentences applied to any interaction with the plant, as we may say, just like any other offense during the tough-on-crime era and coming into this era, but the difference that we’re trying to make is embedded in a reality, right. And this reality is that we are now trending in a direction where cannabis is seen as a healing agent. And it is also seen as no longer being a threat to public safety and a market that folks are now getting involved in as a legal market and moving away from a prohibition era. And so the conversations that are so important, that we’re trying to ignite, that we’re trying to lead on, and that we’re trying to empower others to speak about, is how cannabis has for such a long time, and as we know, federally is still very much attached to this War on Drugs, to a stigma around illegal narcotics, and try and move folks out of that space into a true understanding of cannabis, but also how our criminal legal system has, amongst other things, very much gotten it wrong. And that it should no longer be seen as a schedule one drug, but also that the harsh penalties that have accompanied the possession or the sale or, or the use of cannabis have always been oppressive, have always been unjust, and should no longer be treated as such.
Joshua Hoe
So you know, if I go out my door, get in my car, drive down the street, there are probably as many cannabis dispensaries in my neighborhood as there are anything else. Right. But my understanding is that a shockingly large number of people still get ticketed or arrested for pot, for cannabis every year. Is that fair?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, that’s very fair to say. You know, right now we are in a place where 37 states practice some form of non-prohibition policy around cannabis. Whether that’s full adult-use, recreational, whether that is adult medical use, there is the decriminalization of cannabis. And so in various places, you’ll see different types of setups, like in my home state of California, it is recreational use, you can go to a local dispensary, and it’s like walking into a bar, right, they check your ID, they let you in, and you can purchase whatever you want. But then there are other situations like the District of Columbia, where it’s decriminalized, but there’s no free-flowing market. And so the experience still feels very criminalized, whether it’s decriminalized or not. And as we can get into later, law enforcement still uses cannabis as leverage to search personal property, to seize property. And, and also just to impose control over communities of color and impoverished communities as well. And so, like you said, although it is legal in some places, or it’s decriminalized in some places the overall approach, the societal view has not changed, right, that stigma is still attached to it. And so in many places, when it is decriminalized, can still for a certain individual mean that you’re still going to be arrested. Or you’re still going to get a ticket or you’re still going to have to pay a fine. And for those who have been oppressed by the system, in general, more times than not, you will probably still find yourself arrested in the back of a law enforcement vehicle. And so part of the work that we do is awareness campaigns about that, and then work that tries to lessen that possibility, the possibility of that happening to people.
Joshua Hoe
And then that also creates a lot of inner and intrastate problems, like I’ve seen stories of people who purchased marijuana legally in one state, got in a car, drove to another state where it’s not legal, and then get caught up. And in that, because of what you’re talking about in terms of searches, with such a – for lack of a better term – a kind of Federalist patchwork of state laws right now. And the problem with the federal enforcement – I remember when I was incarcerated, I knew a guy whose brother had opened a marijuana business, and then the feds came in, even though it was legal in the state for what he was doing, the feds came in and shut him down. So how’re you all working in this kind of patchwork of states or state policies to try to fix any of these problems?
Michael Deegan McCree
Well, first of all, I want to touch on just the experience that you just brought up that one of your friends experienced, because we have folks that are just like that as well, right, where you may not even see the plant,or touch the plant, but your involvement in any operation outside of a legally licensed market makes you vulnerable to law enforcement. You know, we have stories of our constituents at the Last Prisoner Project, who either lent their vehicle, they might own a trucking and transportation business, and just lent their vehicle to some somebody who was transporting cannabis from a legal state to or through a jurisdiction where it’s illegal. And they have been caught up on conspiracy and sentenced. We have constituents who have held money for folks who have sold outside of the legal market and have also been incarcerated for that. And so there’s so many ways that law enforcement can leverage their tools, as it relates to prohibition law and probation policy around cannabis. And so those are some of the things that we’re trying to fix. But as it relates to our policy work, at the Last Prisoner Project, they’re really two different approaches to different reform policy efforts that we give, that we’re really concentrating on. And those two different things are resentencing and then automatic record clearance. And so, you know, these are two really, really important portions of the work that we do.
Joshua Hoe
I think we’ll get into that a little bit more in a second. But it’s also correct to say that these kinds of legal penalties and this patchwork and everything tend to distribute penalties along fairly racially disparate lines. Is that fair to say as well?
Michael Deegan McCree
100%, 100%.
Joshua Hoe
Could you talk about that a little bit more?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, for sure. You know, it’s really well known that in our market, or in, in our communities, that white folks and black folks use cannabis at pretty much the exact same rate, right? There is no big difference on how much the black community is using marijuana versus the white community. But we know that there is a huge gap, a huge gap in our communities as it relates to who was being arrested, who was being sentenced, convicted, incarcerated, which then has a huge ripple effect right through the families that are being impacted, the communities that are being impacted, and ultimately, the support structure that upholds these communities. And so just like any other reform effort, concentrating on the disproportionate impact of prohibition policies is really, really important. And that really comes into the implementation of policy and making sure that when we do get into spaces of resentencing or record clearance, making sure that that implementation happens appropriately, right, because if we’re not making sure that that happens if the retroactivity of the application of any reform isn’t, isn’t implemented correctly, then the disproportionate oppression of the prohibition era will continue to impact generations to come, especially in communities of color.
Joshua Hoe
And there’s also an issue of access to the legal markets, right, in terms of racial disparity. It seems like ownership tends to not be equally distributed. Am I right there, too?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point that you bring up because, you know, we are really in the middle of having those types of conversations in the advocacy space and in the reform space, as it relates to marijuana justice. There’s what some folks would see as two sides of this effort: there’s the criminal justice side. And then there’s the social equity side. When you’re legalizing these markets, and you have predominantly white, wealthy businessmen and women who have made their money in other sectors, whether that’s on Wall Street, or in the housing market, or anything else, and decide to bring those profits into what is now a booming legal market, they have a leg up already, having that liquid cash, that capital to start your own business. And what a lot of states have tried to do, but have mostly all failed to do, is put social equity provisions into the legislation that they’re trying to pass while legalizing cannabis. But at this moment in time, there has been no successful blueprint of a program that really, really advances the ownership and the shortening of the wealth gap for communities of color and impoverished communities and impacted communities as it relates to the ownership of a cannabis dispensary, or grow operation. And so it’s an ongoing conversation. It’s a difficult conversation to have because I think we all recognize the importance of restorative justice as it relates to equitable opportunities for communities that have been impacted. But unlike the criminal justice side of the conversation, there’s far less data on what a successful equitable program looks like, as it relates to this new legal market. And we recognize how important that is, especially in healing the wrongs that have been imposed on these communities. And it’s important that we do arrive at that space. But it is a conversation that takes a lot more thought partnership based on the lack of data that we have, as it relates to that portion of the work, but it is vital to moving us forward into a space that is equitable, and that is fair.
Joshua Hoe
We’ve been seeing a massive and often legal backlash against the notion that structural racism exists in this country. Oddly enough. I feel like over-policing of communities of color, all the stuff we’re talking about is part of this structural bias. Do you want to talk about where we are as a country when it comes to addressing racism? Wow, it’s a very weird time right now. We got a lot of crazy stuff going on.
Michael Deegan McCree
You know, it really is a weird time in our country; it’s not a shocking time, at least as a black American. I’m not shocked. But where we currently are, is in a sense of a new version of rewriting history. This is truly a revisionist effort on the efforts of some who are not willing, able or stable enough to have a conversation about the systemic racism that not only continues to oppress communities of color today, but that racism, in fact, is the structural and also economic oxygen of the United States. We were founded on the belief that a portion of our citizenry was more than another, right. And so, as you look at that legacy, and then you look at where we currently are in the United States of America, racism shows itself in so many different forms, whether it’s our criminal legal system, whether it’s the way that media portrays certain issues that are going on in the community, right down to the application and the implementation of policies in health care, and policies in education, and policies in agriculture and reproductive justice; it touches every single issue that Americans interact with and engage with on a daily basis. And it’s very, very dangerous when, especially our elected leaders, and various media outlets, pitch the education and the transparency of race in this country as teaching new generations of white-facing, and white American citizens to hate themselves, right? Because that’s not what this is about. So any issue, criminal justice or anything else that involves a conversation, is not only up against reforming its own system but is up against those who you have to work with [who don’t believe] that conversation around race, which intersects with all of these issues even happening, it makes it even more difficult to accomplish any type of progress. But then also just have a conversation about how that impacts the work that we’re doing, and how important it is that race is included in those conversations.
Joshua Hoe
So as we mentioned before, we’re in the middle of a bunch of waves of legalization across the country. For many people, criminalization, at least for personal use, is no longer a problem. But one of your pillars of what you all are doing is, as you mentioned before, resentencing. Given the varying levels of criminalization, what is your approach? And how is it working?
Michael Deegan McCree
So as you mentioned, there’s been advancements and legalization policies across the country. But many states fail to, or I guess they neglect to, repeal things such as mandatory minimum sentences that are associated with cannabis-related crimes. And, you know, that also fails to release or vice sentences of real life, human beings that are still incarcerated, for that conduct. So for us at the Last Prisoner Project, in states where cannabis is legal, and people remain incarcerated and under supervision for cannabis-related offenses, it’s really vital and imperative for us that states start to review and modify their cannabis-related sentences, so that the practice becomes commonplace, that you are releasing individuals from incarceration. And you are also releasing those who are on supervision when it’s appropriate. And even for those who are incarcerated for multiple convictions. You know, maybe they have an offense that isn’t cannabis-related that based on law, based on the policies at hand, yes, that stays in place, but that shouldn’t make them ineligible in states where it’s now becoming legal for them to benefit from relief as it relates to the changing policy and law surrounding what their cannabis conviction was. And so yes, resentencing is a huge part of that work.
Joshua Hoe
I know from doing a lot of work on things that tried to create retroactivity, and resentencing options, that that frequently gets judges and prosecutors and lots of other people pretty grumpy, because you know, those are prosecutions that they put forward and stuff like that. How are you all wrestling with for lack of a better term, the opposition from entrenched state actors?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, that’s a great question. Right. We talk about rollbacks in criminal justice reform just as much as anything else. You know, there’s always going to be opposition to resentencing. But the way that we deal with it is, it’s a pretty logical stance as it relates to cannabis justice, right? If you are going to legalize a market, and you are going to say, hey, look, this is no longer a criminal offense, it’s no longer illegal, it really is imperative. And that’s really the moral and ethical thing to do. And quite simply to understand that people should no longer be behind bars.
Joshua Hoe
I get what you’re saying, but you and I both worked on the First Step Act. And you remember that in 2010, they were trying to get crack versus cocaine changed. But they didn’t make it retroactive and we’re still not there. But we are there to a certain percent, but not all the way. Right. But it’s not 100 to one anymore, which is, you know, but we had to fight our butts off to even get it to 18-to-one even though they’d already passed the 2010 rule. So I get what you’re saying about the logic of it. But you know, I don’t think our systems generally work on logic.
Michael Deegan McCree
You’ve never lied about that one; that is that is very, very true. I think something that that shows is that when you’re doing this resentencing, make it retroactive. I think there’s a huge argument for the amount of money, there’s always that conversation as well, how much money we’re spending on incarcerating people, and especially when we’re able to have conversations with prosecutors, with judges, and with lawmakers that would align more I think with tough on crime, and really like to, to cross their t’s and dot their i’s, as it relates to public safety. It’s that conversation about the interaction with the plant and non-violent cannabis offenses, and how you’re spending so much money keeping somebody behind bars, that is not a threat to the community; having that conversation, and then easing them into that resentencing and the application of that resentencing for folks that are still under government surveillance, has done very well in our interactions as it relates to awareness campaigns, legislative campaigns, so on and so forth. And so, you know, obviously, keep your fingers crossed, that those conversations continue to trend in that direction, but also that the data that we are able to produce over time through our efforts, as we know, will continue to prove it is the right direction to go. And, and continuously being aware, as you said, just because two plus two equals four, and when the sun shines, the sky is blue doesn’t necessarily mean everybody is going to look at it as such.
Joshua Hoe
That answer raised a couple more questions for me. The first one is, as there’s a lot of people who, some of their charges are pot-related. Some of them can be charged as violence, and some of that is because of the fact that it is criminalized, you know, that creates in a sense a lot of the violence. Do you also work on resentencing and at the water’s edge of people who are doing nonviolent, you know, cannabis use or?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, yeah, that’s a good question. You know, I think as we both know, every conversation under this umbrella, sometimes most of the time, unfortunately, gets us to a fork in the road where folks want to pick non-violent versus violent. And as you just said, law enforcement is able to leverage something like a possession charge and make it spiral into something so much more. So in our work at this moment, we are concentrating on retroactive resentencing, automatic record clearance, as it relates to just specifically non-violent cannabis offenses and convictions. But that does not mean that we don’t believe that the work we are doing can open up a door as a proof of concept to create resentencing for individuals that are convicted of offenses that may have been placed in the category of a violent offense or not. So what we’re doing is creating what we believe to be a new pathway for states to release folks by saying if a law changes in such a way, [such] that the conduct for which a certain individual is currently serving a sentence or is under surveillance is no longer illegal or has the seriousness of said offense might be lessened that they should have an ability to have their day in court and be resentenced. So we’re leveraging our work to open up a broader conversation. Whereas right now, maybe resentencing policy that we are supporting, or that we’ve written what we’re advocating for, may only apply to those who have a non-violent cannabis conviction or are under surveillance due to that. We also attach to our messaging when this conversation is also brought in as a part of the work that we’re doing that we believe that cannabis resentencing is that proof of concept to demonstrate to lawmakers, to the courts, and to the public, that resentencing as a broader scale campaign should be what our community is working on, what it’s pushing for. And when again, those laws do change, that there do need to be automatic vehicles that bring relief to those who are serving sentences, not only just for cannabis, or cannabis and another offense, but all offenses across the board.
Joshua Hoe
Yeah, I think I mostly asked that because I know you all have done some work with Michael Thompson, who is from Michigan, and his case was infinitely more complicated than just a simple non-violent possession. And ultimately, he did get relief. I’m curious about how those things bridge, given that you have been involved, at least in some cases with folks who had more.
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, I think, you know, Michael Thompson is, you know, his story is known nationwide. And I think, you know, he’s a pretty good example of that, right, serving 23 years behind bars. We requested a clemency petition and Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, granted said petition. And you know, I don’t think it’s too much of a secret that, you know, what we did is we leaned heavily on the cannabis part of his conviction, right? That using that, again, as a, I guess, as a launching pad.
Joshua Hoe
I mean, just to clarify, for people who might not know, this is an example of habitual sentencing laws where several different things can happen together at once and trigger a very long sentence. In his case, it would have probably been 60 or more years. And by disaggregating that, you were able to get past some of that, because of the pot being one of the triggering conditions. Correct?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so you know, we were able to get Michael Thompson out. But as you said, his case is a prime example of cannabis being used as leverage for law enforcement to then stack charges, one on top of the other in order to impose a very lengthy and what we believe to be draconian sentence and then and then a conviction. So that reality still very much remains, right. And so that points to how important it is that not only Not only are we fighting for legalization but that we understand that these policies that we pass during legalization also need to tend to the various avenues in which law enforcement does use cannabis for further conviction, which is why in decriminalized jurisdictions, this conversation is still so important. Again, as it relates to using it for further charges, and also how much it impacts communities of color in impoverished communities.
Joshua Hoe
I think that for the vast majority of folks, I mean, hundreds of 1000s of people, a pot charge has really, didn’t end up necessarily in long-term incarceration, but does have really real impacts on your life on an everyday basis, just like any other criminal charge would, regardless of how much time you serve. But I think there are people who are incarcerated who have pot as part of their stew of charges. But there’s also, my understanding is, it’s not a very large percentage of people who end up incarcerated solely for pot. Is that fair?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, I think where we are today, it’s less and less that folks would simply, you know, be incarcerated for a lengthy amount of time due to a cannabis conviction. But as you just said, any conviction, any arrest, any collateral consequences are real. Any run-in with law enforcement, the moment that you’re asked to put your hands behind your back and you have those handcuffs on your wrists. You’ve been touched by the system, and no matter what your sentence is, no matter what the conviction is, even if it’s just pretrial incarceration, I don’t want to say “just”; I was incarcerated pretrial, and that wasn’t a “just” situation at all. You’re going to be impacted. And so the fight has to continue to make sure that that doesn’t happen.
Joshua Hoe
Just in the last few weeks, we have seen a huge “usual suspects” right-wing backlash against federal funds that were intended for harm reduction policies. Even though we were averaging over 100,000 overdose deaths a year doing things the way we normally do them. I know you’re mostly concerned with marijuana, but what should our basic default position as a country be toward dealing with issues like addiction, drug use, and harm reduction?
Michael Deegan McCree
I’m really glad that you asked this. And, you know, I want to be clear on this. I’m speaking as Michael Deacon McCree. Just because LPP doesn’t deal with those other issues, but being somebody who has substance abuse issues, and who has gone through substance abuse therapy and programming. You know, it’s really important that the approach that we take is harm reduction. When I was arrested and incarcerated, I was deep into my addiction, I had no sense of direction as it related to mental health, and harm or …. reduction therapy. I didn’t even know that I had the issues that I have. And so to use cages as a remedy, as an answer to substance abuse and mental health issues is 100% wrong; it is the wrong thing to do. Not just ethically and morally, but it doesn’t work. And we’ve seen that for decades upon decades. And so it is really my belief that our approach to substance abuse needs to be fully invested in harm reduction. And if that means that there need to be funds appropriated from the federal level from the state level into the county and more city local levels, to create programming or fund programs that already exist that the community trusts, that’s what needs to happen. But to fund greater law enforcement efforts as a means for hiding behind public safety and using that as a fear-mongering tool, as it relates to these overdose deaths and the volume of drugs that do come into our communities, that is not the right answer. And that only exacerbates the problem that we have with addiction in this country.
Joshua Hoe
So another of the pillars of the work your organization does, and we talked about it a little bit already, is working for prisoner release. Do you want to talk about that a little bit more?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, I definitely want to talk about that. So, one of those core factors of reform work is that people will always come up to you and say, Okay, well, you know, the legislative process is slow. And it is, it’s really, really intense. And it takes a while to get things done. And sometimes you end up not even getting what you first set out to do. And while we’re fighting this fight, there are people from our community that are still behind bars. So what are you doing about them? Are you doing any direct advocacy? And for us, you know, the release of those who are incarcerated for cannabis is paramount. It’s at the very top of our list. And so we have this initiative called the Cannabis Justice Initiative. And it’s where we have partnered with the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, really working in the states where it has been legalized, where it has been legalized recreationally to identify legal interventions, and really work to get folks out on such stances like compassionate release, so on and so forth, but also in campaigns, campaigning statewide in those states for mass clemency efforts. Because that’s really, really important as well. There are so many states that have legalized cannabis, but still have human beings that are sitting behind bars and who are, as you just brought up, really experiencing the full brunt of the collateral consequences that came with their conviction. And so we’re really pushing efforts to get folks from behind bars in states where it is now legalized, but they have not prioritized the release of those folks who are still in prison.
Joshua Hoe
You also do a lot of work – and you’ve talked about this a few times already – in the area of record clearances, something near and dear to my own heart, having worked on clean slate laws, several times. What are y’all doing in this area beyond what we’ve already discussed?
Michael Deegan McCree
So automatic record clearing is really, really important, as you just said, because a criminal record can be a huge barrier to many things for somebody who’s been incarcerated, right, from employment to housing, to financial assistance. And so, you know, it’s unsurprising that in many areas, data shows that people released from incarceration fail at properly coming back into our communities, because they don’t have the proper resources in place. So we do work to advance broad and automatic Clean Slate initiatives. And really try to streamline the expungement process and the record clearing programs that are put into these policies when states decide they want to legalize cannabis. But for us specifically, one of the policy campaigns that we’re working on right now, that I think is a great, great example of this work is a bill that we are advocating for, and pushing in the state of California, which is being carried by a Bay Area representative who sits in the assembly, Assemblywoman Mia Bonta. And, you know, before I get into the bill itself, I do want to give a little bit of background for the listeners here on what’s gone on in California. You know, recreational adult-use was voted upon by the California electorate in 2016 and went into effect later on. But in 2018, really on the heels of that legalization, there was a bill that was passed by Assemblyman Rob Bonta, who is actually now the Attorney General of the state. And this groundbreaking legislation allowed for the automatic sealing of cannabis criminal records for old offenses that were no longer illegal, right. And this piece of legislation was seen as groundbreaking and how it was going to kind of set the table for states that were going to legalize in the future, and how they would deal with the collateral consequences, but also the disproportionate impact of cannabis prohibition. And, you know, it was really there to heal the harms of the War on Drugs. And what it would do is, it would really just clean the slate for those who had been impacted. But unfortunately, the implementation of this bill has been really, really inconsistent, right? That across the state, while some counties were really motivated, and they were proactive in their implementation of this bill, and started to clear the records of folks who had been formally convicted, a lot of other counties, were not as motivated to do so. And, you know, the bill gave a deadline of July 1 of 2020 for all county district attorneys in the state, to provide the necessary data to the courts so that this process could get underway. But again, there was not a ton of motivation for many counties to do this. And so folks who had convictions were still being impacted by those collateral consequences. And so what we’re doing now is we are pushing forward additional legislation that we hope will pass and will take care of this. And what this piece of legislation really is going to do is it establishes a hard deadline by which local courts must seal cannabis criminal records. So instead of, you know, putting the option on the table, and just giving the tools to district attorneys and the courts, it is directing them that this must be done. So we’re directing the District Attorney in the local courts, along with the Department of Justice in California to complete this work of processing past cannabis convictions that are deemed eligible for automatic sealing. And it also establishes a hard deadline, as I said, for the courts, who by now, based on the previous bill, are supposed to have all the relevant information related to these cases. And so they must be processed. But some other really key portions of this legislation that I think make it really, really strong is that it also is going to require the Judicial Council to monitor the process and also to produce a monthly report to the legislature to ensure the compliance with the deadlines and data transparency. So the previous piece of legislation didn’t hold any key deadlines, or really any accountability vehicle to make sure that this process takes place. So it’s also going to require that the Department of Justice conducts its own public awareness campaign. Now, why is this important? This is important because we often fight for these reforms and these changes, especially ones that can act retroactively and really bring relief to the incarcerated and directly impacted communities. But nobody knows about them. Nobody tells folks that these tools have been put in place and that these processes exist. And so it’s going to be incumbent upon the Department of Justice in California to put forward a public awareness campaign as well, along with organizations, such as ourselves, who will gladly do so to make sure that folks understand that this policy has been put in place. And you know, I really want to harp on how important automatic clearance can be, especially as it relates to cannabis. The process of having your record automatically cleared brings so much relief, gives so much agency to an individual, and allows for them to really, you know, write their next chapter without the imposition of government surveillance, or collateral consequences. And by way of that, can really help to heal a community that has been vastly impacted by this prohibition era. So, you know, automatic record clearance is, is at the very, very top of the work that we’re doing at LPP, and is very, very important not only to our constituents but to the greater criminal justice movement at large.
Joshua Hoe
The Last Prisoner Project is also involved in reentry. What are y’all doing to help folks with marijuana charges be successful when returning from incarceration?
Michael Deegan McCree
Yeah, that’s also a really, really big part of our work. And I think it’s one of the big intersections between the work that our policy team does, and the work that our impact and reentry team is doing as well, right. Just coming out and talking about automatic record clearance. That’s really, really important in order for folks to be eligible for certain programs that can help them transition and get back on their feet. But equally important is showing folks who are directly impacted, our constituents here at LPP, a roadmap, a blueprint of what that looks like. And so there are many programs and initiatives that we are running. But the foundation of our reentry programming, from the very start, was our micro-grant program. This specific initiative is literally for anybody who has been directly impacted by the war on cannabis. So whether you spent time behind bars, because of your involvement with the plant, if you spent time in pretrial incarceration, if you are the brother, sister, aunt, uncle, parent, or child of somebody who’s been impacted, we are giving out micro-grants to help assist those impacted stay on or get back on their feet, and really relieve the economic punishment that many are experiencing due to being impacted by cannabis prohibition. So a lot of our candidates and constituents initially apply, because they just need, they need a little bit of financial assistance. But we also really are trying to pay attention to for what [do they need assistance]? Our hope is to have a really invested understanding of what categories those who have been impacted, are really trying to get the funds for, whether it’s housing, or they trying to start their own business. And so do they need some funds to help with that? Are they looking to go back to school, and so they need help with that? We also, this program isn’t just about folks who are already home, it’s also for constituents of ours who we are working with through our Cannabis Justice Initiative, which I mentioned earlier. They may have loved ones who are on the outside that do need this assistance because the lack of support that they have because they have an incarcerated, loved one [and it] is really impacting them. We have a constituent whose child is now going off and trying to accomplish getting their law degree and so you know, as much help as we can give to her through this program is really, really important. But on top of that, our reentry program this year, now that we have had three years of success, doing our micro-grant program, we’re trying to start two other initiatives that I’m really, really excited about. And we’ll be launching at the end of the first quarter this year in March. And that is our Ready to Hire campaign and our Computers for Constituents campaign. And really the titles of both of them kind of say it. Ready to Hire is rooted in our ability to help our constituents and those who have been impacted by the war on cannabis to be ready to come back into the professional world, right. As we know, folks who spend time behind bars, no matter how long they’ve been away, the current developments of how you interact with the professional world, even just the tools that you need, and the resources that you have to have to be competitive, right, having a well put together resume, understanding how to write a cover letter, understanding how to negotiate with a possible employer, for salary, all of these things are really, really important. And so already a higher initiative is about partnering with organizations who are in the cannabis space and who are outside of the cannabis space, that are willing to help our constituents get the upper leg that they need in this industry, and really advance their ability to build a career for themselves that they can take pride in and that they see as a foundation for their own lives moving forward. And as it relates to our other initiative, Computers for Constituents, it kind of walks hand-in-hand with the Ready to Hire Initiative. We’re partnering with organizations that are willing to give direct resources. So as we know, a lot of organizations buy computers for their employees, and at a certain time, they decide to buy new computers for their employees and just have a backstock of very, very advanced computers and laptops that they are not using anymore. And so we’re partnering with organizations that are willing to give and understand the importance of giving and donating computers for our constituents to use for professional and educational advancement. And then other organizations that also understand the importance of this, that are willing to give monetary resources for us as an organization to go out and purchase computers for constituents so that they have the necessary resources, the necessary tools to move forward in a professional or an educational endeavor. And so, you know, one of the things that I want to say that’s really, really important about reentry work as a whole is that we can pass as many pieces of legislation as we fight for, and hold the powers that be accountable for the implementation of these policies. But, you know, we can’t just open the prison gates to opportunity for those who are directly impacted, we also need to give those who are impacted the tools to walk through those gates and be successful in the 21st century in the United States. And whatever that means, it is incumbent on the community to give that support, and make sure that folks are ready, not just on our end, those who have been directly impacted. But we also need to be advocating for organizations and companies across the country to understand and become aware of what it means to get involved with reentry, and second-chance hiring initiatives as well.
Joshua Hoe
So we’re entering into a 2022 election cycle that seems outwardly hostile to progress on the issues that we’re talking about. We’ve got a media environment that’s definitely pushed against that. And we still have a lot of people in this country who seem to feel that marijuana is dangerous, and represents a public safety problem. What are you all doing to try to change the narrative around that stuff?
Michael Deegan McCree
So public awareness campaigns are really important to us. We really try our best to concentrate on criminal justice, as it relates to this issue. As you said there’s a lot that surrounds this issue because it really does have a stigma attached to it that it accompanies a downturn in public safety, something that we all know that the media really likes to latch on to. But our work really surrounds campaigns proving that the marijuana industry, as it relates to public safety really, really only shows a negative impact on public safety, as it relates to the lack of structure that is in the market. And that the legalization and decriminalization actually advance public safety more than anything, and that they don’t, that they cannot be tied in the media to an uptick in crime, as the media likes to do with many different efforts as they relate to criminal justice reform.
Joshua Hoe
So a couple of years ago, someone who was listening to the podcast suggested that I start asking for book recommendations. If you look behind me, you’ll see I like books quite a bit. So I always ask if there’s any criminal justice-related books that you might recommend to others, ones that you particularly enjoy.
Michael Deegan McCree
I think that’s really, really important. And I love that you bring that up, I’m looking at the library behind you. And I see a lot of my favorites.
Joshua Hoe
That’s a good way to cheat, no one’s ever done that before, but you could just pick one of the books in the background.
Michael Deegan McCree
I’m not going to, I swear, for those of you that are listening and can’t see. But one of the books that I really, really enjoyed was Locking Up Our Own, by James Forman, Jr, who was a former public defender in Washington, DC, and also is a professor of law at Yale Law School. And the reason why I’m picking this book specifically is because it talks a lot about the involvement that communities of color, and those who are really still in power today, who are leaders of the black community, the Latinx community, who come from impoverished communities, what hand they had in building this machine of tough on crime policies that we’re working so hard to reform and abolish today. And the reason why I think this book is so important is not just because of that high-level topic that it’s talking about, but also how it brings in the conversation of yes, these communities were asking for more police, you know, more money to build up prosecutor’s offices, harsher sentences. But there’s a whole part of that conversation and that narrative that is missed, and that’s not talked about, which is these communities were also asking for more funds, as it related to mental health resources, resources for those who were dealing with substance abuse and addiction, resources to invest in more community programming for youth and for disadvantaged portions of the community. And those resources that were asked for, didn’t come. That the side of resources, as it related to law enforcement, and your traditional forms of public safety as we know them to be right now, were given and were imposed on these communities. But the partner that was asked for in restorative community resources was not, and talking about how that led to so much oppression and so much abuse within these communities, I think is a really important conversation that needs to continue throughout the movement for criminal justice reform and the ending of mass incarceration as well. So I think that’s a perfect book for people to pick up at some point.
Joshua Hoe
I’m always happy when people mention that book, because this podcast in five years, has only won one award. And it was for that episode where I was interviewing James Forman.
Michael Deegan McCree
That’s awesome. Yeah, he’s great. He’s great.
Joshua Hoe
So that’s a special one in my heart. That’s a special episode because we got some recognition for that one. I always ask the same last question; what did I mess up? What question should I have asked but did not?
Michael Deegan McCree
What question should you have asked that you didn’t?
Joshua Hoe
It’s fair to say, some people do, some people don’t have an answer to this. It’s just I like to end on a humility question.
Michael Deegan McCree
You know what? If I was to think about a question that you haven’t asked, you know, I think you hit on all of them. The only question that I would have asked that you did not, is what involvement has come from the more corporate side of the cannabis legalization movement, and how can those who aren’t involved in criminal justice get involved in this, this niche portion of the movement itself?
Joshua Hoe
And your answer would be?
Michael Deegan McCree
So my answer would be, to the first portion of that question is that, as I’ve stepped into this space, I’ve been in criminal justice for a while, but stepping into the marijuana criminal justice space, we have to interact with those who are really just interested in making the almighty dollar as it relates to this new legalized market. And, you know, I would say that we do have many organizations that do give funds to LPP and give funds to other cannabis advocacy organizations. But I think it’s really important that these organizations get even more involved past the effort of writing a check, understanding what it means to be involved with fair chance hiring, understanding what that means for somebody who has been incarcerated, and how you extend dignity and grace to a community of people that has been abused and abused by a market that was once illegal, but now that you are benefiting from. I think that’s really, really important. And then to answer the second part of that question, for folks who, you know, are listening to this podcast or, or first-time listeners, or maybe who haven’t given much thought to the intersection of cannabis and criminal justice, I would really encourage you to go to our website, which is www.lastprisonerproject.org. And, you know, spend half an hour, just spend half an hour grooming through, you know, some of the pages of the campaigns and initiatives and programs that I’ve referenced during this interview. And, and get involved, reach out to our organization about ways in which you can get involved. We have a letter-writing campaign where you can write back and forth with a constituent of ours that’s still incarcerated, you can donate to our micro-grant program that is helping folks who are coming home get on their feet, and there are going to be a plethora of ways that you can get more involved in this movement. And then I think the last way that I would say to get involved, especially if you’re working at an organization that’s interested in Fair Chance hiring, you know, contact us at LPP because we’re working with some of our reentry partners on fair chance hiring fairs around the country, for organizations to come out, to specifically have access to those who have been impacted by the war on drugs and the war on cannabis. And so we will, you know, do an intro interview with you and your leadership about what fair chance hiring looks like, how to get involved, and then how to make sure that your organization is not only at these Fair Chance hiring fairs, but also how your organization can funnel job opportunities through us here at LPP and other organizations in the space to make sure that those impacted, you know, kind of have the first dibs as it relates to some of these positions as well. So that’s a way that you can get involved if you haven’t been yet.
Joshua Hoe
Well, thanks so much for doing this; it is really nice of you to take the time.
Michael Deegan McCree
Thanks! I really, really appreciate it. And, and how much I love this podcast in challenging the way that we talk about ending mass incarceration and the impacts of the criminal legal system. There needs to be more like it; [there] really, really does. So thank you so, so much for the work that you’re doing, and also for having me on today.
Joshua Hoe
Of course, thanks so much for being here.
Joshua Hoe
And now my take.
I’ve stayed away from the topic of cannabis for almost five years. I stayed away largely because I think that we way too often think that marijuana enforcement is at the heart of mass incarceration; it is not. Relatively few people have state prison sentences solely for the use or sale of marijuana. However, and this is important, a huge amount of people get criminal records and come into contact with the criminal justice system solely because of pot and a hugely disparate amount of those people are brown and black. Cannabis justice is racial justice. And even if you have not gone to prison for using marijuana, a criminal record impacts your ability to get a job, get housing, and it can even impact voting rights and access to other important rights throughout our society. Cannabis can also trigger habitual sentences, or be combined with other charges to be part of a long and indeterminate sentence, as we saw in the case here in Michigan with Michael Thompson. I apologize for ignoring this topic for as long as I have. But I also want to make sure that the people who listen to this podcast understand how complicated mass incarceration is, and how many levels and issues are involved.
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