Joshua Hoe interviews Kaitlin Owens about her work to pass Dignity legislation across the country
Full Episode
My Guest
Kaitlin Owens is a policy analyst at the American Conservative Union Foundation’s Nolan Center for Justice. In this role, she researches and writes on a number of different topics, addresses, and justice in the criminal justice system, prison conditions transition after release, and ways to reduce recidivism rates. However, her main area of focus is the ACUFS “Dignity for Incarcerated Women” campaign. This campaign seeks to address the unique needs of women in our federal justice system by ensuring health needs are met and human dignity is maintained throughout the system.
Notes from Episode 83
If you want to hear Amanda Knox’s interview with me can be found on the Crime Story podcast page.
For more information about Michigan’s Clean Slate package:
- The Detroit Free Press published this recent article about recent legislative progress
- You can read a breakdown of the package from the Safe & Just Michigan website
ACUF has helped pass dignity legislation in multiple states. You can see the list of issues they are working on from their website. You can also read about their efforts to pass Dignity Legislation there as well.
Transcript
A full PDF Transcript of Episode 83 of the Decarceration Nation Podcast
Joshua B. Hoe
Hello and welcome to Episode 83 of the Decarceration Nation podcast, a podcast about radically reimagining America’s criminal justice system. I’m Josh Hoe, and among other things, I’m formerly incarcerated; a freelance writer; a criminal justice reform advocate; and the author of the book Writing Your Own Best Story: Addiction and Living Hope.
We’ll get to my interview with Kaitlin Owens in just a minute. But first, the news.
I guess the biggest news on my end is that my interview with Amanda Knox came out last week. If you’ve not heard it yet, you can find it on the Crime Story podcast page, and I will include a link in the show notes. When I was in prison in Michigan, she was in prison in Italy. And so in a weird kind of way I did follow what was going on with her. And it was really interesting to talk with her and I hope you all get a chance to check it out. I thought it was a really good interview. She was interviewing me, and I really enjoyed it.
One of the main projects I’ve been working on over the last year has been a package of expungement bills that could make it easier for hundreds of thousands of formerly incarcerated Michiganders to clear their criminal records after they have remained crime-free for a number of years. Just a few days ago, the package passed one of its biggest tests, its highest hurdles, as it was given the thumbs up by the Senate Judiciary Committee here in Michigan. Keep your fingers crossed that the full Senate will pass the bill when they return from summer break in July.
Several months ago, I was invited as a guest to CPAC, which is the largest gathering of conservatives in the United States every year. As you might remember, CPAC happened right at the start of the COVID outbreak. As all of you know, I very much believe that criminal justice reform is a bipartisan concern. And I was very flattered to be one of the few progressives invited to the conference.
Anyway, let’s get to my interview with Kaitlin Owens, with the American Conservative Union Foundation, about dignity legislation. This will be the first of my two interviews from CPAC 2020.
Kaitlin Owens is a policy analyst for the American Conservative Union Foundation’s Nolan Center for Justice. In this role, she researches and writes on a number of different topics and addresses injustice in the criminal justice system; prison conditions; transition after release, and ways to reduce recidivism rates. However, her main area of focus is the ACUF’s Dignity for Incarcerated Women campaign. This effort led by ACUF seeks to address the unique needs of women in our federal justice system by ensuring health needs are met and human dignity is maintained throughout the system. Welcome to the Decarceration Nation podcast, Kaitlin.
Kaitlin Owens
Thank you for having me.
Joshua B. Hoe
My pleasure.
Joshua B. Hoe
I always ask the same first question. How did you get from where you started out to working at ACUF and on criminal justice issues?
Kaitlin Owens
So I interned with CPAC right out of college. I graduated in December 2016 and moved right into DC in January, and I made friends with David Safavian, who you’ve spoken with, and he and I just clicked. And I honestly didn’t hear criminal justice reform. I heard criminal justice. And honestly, it was just a way to stay in DC. And so I took it. And I slowly realized that I had been living a life of the “tough on crime” kind of generation, as you would say. A lot of it’s just for my parents, you know, being very staunch Republicans, but I slowly began to educate myself on what is really going on in our prison system. The non-violent offenses that we put people in prison for just don’t make a lot of sense, especially, as conservatives, we care about where our taxpayer dollars are going. And so locking people up for a long period of time just doesn’t make sense. And so I slowly began to realize you don’t have to be “tough on crime”; “smart on crime” is the best way. And it’s really not even soft on crime. You know, we’re still holding people accountable. And that’s really what matters, just not for long periods of time. So that’s how I’ve gotten here.
Joshua B. Hoe
As one who has two conservative parents as well, I totally understand that pathway. So we’re here at CPAC. Would you like to say anything about CPAC or about the criminal justice aspects of the conference?
Kaitlin Ownes
Yeah, sure. So CPAC is unlike any conference I’ve ever been to. One, because it’s huge.
But two, I have noticed – and other people may notice something different – but I notice two separate kinds of people. It’s the older generation and the college generation, the millennials. And so how criminal justice really comes into it is the “tough on crime” vs. the “smart on crime” folks. Bringing them together and really educating them on criminal justice reform is really fun to watch, to see them interact and learn. And this year, we have a virtual reality, going through prison speaking about real-life people who went through the system as juveniles, and really hearing the testimony of them. I think putting a story into words and actually living that out or seeing it through our virtual reality just makes it more real. And that’s obviously what we want.
Joshua B. Hoe
So, way too often, when we talk about criminal justice reform or about incarceration, we end up talking mostly about men, because there’s just so many more men in the system, unfortunately, but a lot of the work you’ve been doing is a lot more about women in prison. Could you talk a little bit more about the differences and what you’ve learned in that process?
Kaitlin Owens
Of course. Right when I started working at ACU with criminal justice reform, I really dove into the women incarcerated issue. And I really started to notice that there’s so many things that women don’t get provided, such as feminine hygiene products, which is so simple, and a basic need, that men don’t have to think about. So that’s a different aspect. When they’re pregnant, and if they’re still incarcerated, going through labor and delivery shackled, which is just mind-boggling. You know, this is a human being that we’re strapping to a gurney and she’s in pain, and then also solitary confinement when she’s pregnant. That can hurt her mental aspect which can hurt the child. And if we’re pro-life, generations of pro-life conservatives, why are we harming the unborn child? So those are some of the things that we address with ACU and dignity. And we’ve done it in multiple states. I think it’s 15 and counting. Virginia just actually passed unanimously yesterday. So we’re super-proud about that. But this is a huge issue. And like you said, prisons weren’t designed for women, they were designed for men, and not a lot has changed since then. And it’s really just treating human beings like human beings. And when you think about that, and you put a face with the name, it becomes more real.
Joshua B. Hoe
Do you want to talk a little bit about the politics? You just said you passed a very recent bill, it was in Virginia. Do you want to talk about how that happened and how people came together to make that happen?
Kaitlin Owens
So something that I will note is, especially in this day and age, just with politics now, it’s very rare that we as conservatives can come together with liberals and Democrats. But this issue is super-easy to do that. About three years ago in 2017, a delegate, Kaye Cory from Virginia, passed a feminine hygiene bill. And I actually just called her up after she passed it and thanked her, and she’s a Democrat. And she and I began a close relationship. We’ve stayed in touch for these three years. And she said, alright, Kaitlin; she called me up this past session and said, I think it’s time; I want to prohibit shackles while pregnant. And I want to ensure that there’s visitation rates with minor children and mothers, because that’s super-important. I want to make sure that the baby doesn’t just leave the mother after she or he is born, similar things like that. And so I was like, Yeah, let’s do it. So we called up our friends from Cut 50 and said, hey, we have a delegate that is super-excited to run this legislation through. And we got some great Republicans on board; delegates Nick Freitas and John McGuire, and it passed unanimously yesterday. So it’s really about just making those relationships beforehand.
Joshua B. Hoe
And what have you learned in the process of making those relationships over the time you’ve been working on this that other people might be able to use when they’re starting to have these discussions in their own states?
Kaitlin Owens
I think one, you really need someone on the ground, whether it’s someone local or in DC; you really just need to make sure that you have the right people in place that can say the right things. And every state is different. So what I would say to people that want to do this in their state is one, find a grassroots organization, whether it’s a state policy network, whether it’s ACLU, really, a lot of people can come together on this. The second thing I’ll say is, you really have to know what you want to do before you ask a delegate or a representative or a senator to introduce it. So you can’t just come in blind. It’s not gonna work, it’s not gonna pass. You also have to have the support of – or at least let them know – the Department of Corrections, sheriffs, all of that, because they’ll more than likely oppose it if they’re not brought in earlier.
Joshua B. Hoe
And with some of these shackling considerations, how have you been able to work with Departments of Corrections to get around some of that? Because usually in my experience, they are generally very excited about making changes to security procedures.
Kaitlin Owens
I think before we say a “this is wrong”, or “this is right” kind of thing, we just simply ask questions on what their policy is currently; because again, every state is different. The second thing we do is bring them statistics. So from the American Medical Association, the obstetrician/gynecologist department, they have put out statistics and studies saying that this is not humane, and this is going to hurt her or her unborn child. So, we have statistics; but then we also go to them and say look, when they’re in labor and delivery, shackling should be a last resort. If the nurse or doctor says yes, they need shackles, they are a flight risk, then yes, shackle them. But to the greatest extent possible, we shouldn’t do that. And then I think a lot of the times we have to give, depending on the state, whether it’s, you know, a red state or a blue state, sometimes we have to give on not shackling up until they’re in labor and delivery. So, even if they’re pregnant, you know, there comes a certain time where we’ll say, Okay, now let’s stop.
Joshua B. Hoe
I obviously have personally never given birth, but I find it pretty amazing that anyone would think that someone was a flight risk in the middle of giving birth.
Kaitlin Owens
No, there’s no story saying that yes, she jumped off the gurney mid-delivery, so I haven’t heard it yet. Knock on wood.
Joshua B. Hoe
Yeah, that would be some superpower stuff.
I read, I think, that you all are working on some probation reform stuff in Pennsylvania. Do you want to talk about that?
Kaitlin Owens
Representative Cheryl Delozier, who’s a Republican representative, and Jordan Harris, who’s a Democrat . . .
Joshua B. Hoe
I had a funny feeling Jordan Harris was gonna be the second name; they’re frequently known as the dynamic duo.
Kaitlin Owens
Yeah, I actually met them in Kentucky at an organization’s gala. And they work super-well together. So yeah, the probation reform got introduced in both the House and the Senate. We think it’s probably going to move more in the House. But right now, we’re just waiting for some representatives to kind of push the bill. But, getting testimony – they’re getting formerly incarcerated to tell their stories – again, really humanizes. You know what’s wrong, and what’s right in the legislation process. So we’re getting there.
Joshua B. Hoe
Do you have any particular goals you’re hoping to get out of that legislation or things that you’re trying to change fundamentally in the process?
Kaitlin Owens
I would say probably the biggest thing is our goal to not have so many people on probation for long periods of time. I met this man who was amazing. He was formerly incarcerated. And he is still on probation after 17 years. Why? Statistics show that after, I think two years of being on probation, you’re probably not gonna recidivate, and so it just amazed me that he had to, he has to jump through hoops and all this stuff to just travel to see his family across state lines. It costs the state a lot of money. You have to get special permission, all of that. So that’s probably the main goal.
Joshua B. Hoe
Y’all are also working on some Second Chance legislation in North Carolina. Is that right?
Kaitlin Owens
We are, but I’m actually not a part of that. My co-worker Patrick Plein is and has been doing great work. That’s actually an omnibus bill, so that that has women incarcerated legislation in that as well. So we’re excited about that.
Joshua B. Hoe
Cool. And you and I both worked for a while on trying to get the First Step Act passed. Would you like to talk about where you think the implementation is right now, and what you thought of that process?
Kaitlin Owens
So I hit the ground running. When I started out at ACU with First Step, I really saw how the legislative process worked on the federal level, which is very different from state level. It is the first step of hopefully many steps. But it was the first true criminal justice reform bill that passed in over a generation, and we were super-excited about that. I know you were as well. It’s been a long time coming. I’m so happy to see all these folks being released and have a second chance at life. That’s super-important. I really commend President Trump for signing it, for his leadership on that, especially with Jared Kushner behind him. But we hope more will come.
Joshua B. Hoe
And do you have any personal thoughts on what you’d like to see, in a possible Second Step? Everyone’s been asking this since we’re a little over a year since [First Step].
Kaitlin Owens
I really want to see more work on the re-entry side. We really need to give these folks that are coming out . . . because 95% of folks will be coming out eventually. And what are we doing? We’re just letting them out with no tools, no education, not a lot of training on how to interact with folks. And so, this past November, we had a Prison CPAC inside prison, and really spoke to them about the tools that they need. We had a body language expert come inside and say, Look, if you’re slouching, if you have your hands crossed – all these things are body language cues. And so, for someone to come in and actually care about them, and show them; this wasn’t just Prison CPAC; it happens all the time. We have people come in and mentor them and all of that; but to have someone come in and you know, show love and show respect, because they’re human beings, too, is super-important. So I really want to see reentry be a huge next step as the next step of First Step.
Joshua B. Hoe
Makes a lot of sense. I talked with David about this a little bit yesterday, too. We’re in a situation right now – and you may or may not have a lot of thoughts about this – where in the last two months, approximately 19 people have died in the Mississippi prison system. I’m asking everybody what their thoughts are on that.
Kaitlin Owens
Yeah, it’s horrible. I was actually supposed to go down with some folks and just really investigate what’s been going on. It’s uncalled for and it’s unjust; and they aren’t [the only] victims; I mean, now it affects their families on the outside. And so we really need more boots on the ground; we really need to focus on these people’s lives behind bars, because just because they’re behind bars doesn’t mean they’re less of a human being. And so, I would just pray that they had others that love them, and just prayed for their peace.
Joshua B. Hoe
I was really excited when David asked me to come here because one of the things I really like about the criminal justice reform space is that it’s one of the few areas where all of us can still kind of be friends. We live in this really polarized society where even saying . . . if I say Trump people are gonna . . . or someone says Pelosi, the world’s gonna collapse; and we’re all in this space [where we] pretty much get along, actually get a lot of work done. And there’s a part in the back of my head that wishes the rest of the world was a little bit like that. And I was wondering what your thoughts were on working in this unique space in this unique political moment.
Kaitlin Owens
Yeah. I think it’s a breath of fresh air one; two, I love working with both sides. I have really come to understand what the other side – and by other side I mean the left because I didn’t grow up that way – how they think and it’s not, it’s just another way to get to our same end goal; we all want the same thing. It’s just how to get there may be different. And so coming together and having a conversation with a conservative and someone on the left, whether it’s someone in the administration or someone in the Senate. I think we can’t do work without doing that and having these conversations. So I think that’s super-important. And I honestly enjoy it.
Joshua B. Hoe
Yeah, me too. And speaking of . . . I think I mentioned David a couple minutes ago. In all the work that I’ve done across the country, and in my own state, pretty much every time anything’s happening, somehow David turns up. And so we’re talking about David Safavian, from the American Conservative Union Foundation. And last week, he got a pardon from the President. And I will not lie, I did it, I actually danced a jig in my office. And so I just wanted to ask how you are all feeling about the good news?
Kaitlin Owens
It’s super-exciting. I’m so happy for him. He actually pulled Patrick, my coworker and myself into his office, right when we got into work and said that the administration called him about 10 o’clock the night before and he was like, you guys are the first to know; a press release is about to come out and he could not stop beaming. And so now to see both my boss, Pat Nolan, get clemency and now David get pardoned is super-exciting.
Joshua B. Hoe
One of the things that was frustrating to me, in watching the press coverage of what happened after that, is that it was almost totally missed that four people who are currently incarcerated got commuted; two women for drug charges, one woman for Medicare fraud and of course we did hear about Rob Blagojevich. Did you have any thoughts about . . . one thing that was really exciting about it is, as I understand it, there was a small group of people outside of the DOJ who came together to start to recommend new commutations, which is something a lot of experts have asked for for a really long time. I was wondering if you had some thoughts about what happened there?
Kaitlin Owens
Yeah. Someone coming tomorrow, Alice Marie Johnson – who Trump, you know, granted clemency to – she was incarcerated with those four individuals, and so she knows them personally. And anyone who knows Alice Marie knows she’s the most sweetest person ever. And so she had the highest things to say. And I think that she really did a good job of bringing their stories to light, just because they were overshadowed. One thing I’ll say about this administration – whether you hate them or love them – he really does hear people out. And so I really applaud him for listening to that group of people. And, again, just realizing that they’re human beings; they make mistakes just like us. I don’t want to be known for the worst mistake I did. And I still get second chances.
Joshua B. Hoe
I know I’m really hopeful that whoever a president is, that they’ll start really caring about the folks that . . . I mean, we know for a fact, from just huge amounts of evidence, that people change over time.
Kaitlin Owens
Exactly.
Joshua B. Hoe
And I’m always hopeful that more and more people get commutations as it becomes apparent that they’ve done what’s necessary to come home.
Kaitlin Owens
And I hope that governors also take the lead on that too, because it’s not just the President who can do it; it’s governors as well. So I hope that they take the lead on it as well.
Joshua B. Hoe
Absolutely. I always ask the same last question: what questions should I have asked but didn’t? What did I miss?
Kaitlin Owens
Oh, man! What state are you going to work in next? And ACU? We are a very small team of four on the criminal justice side, and so we’re all hands on deck. I use my interns all the time. And I’m sure they hate me at the end of the internship. But we are working in a number of states right now, and one state I’m really looking forward to working in is Michigan, actually. Yeah, you may know something about it. We will be running into each other.
Joshua B. Hoe
Definitely back in my home state.
Kaitlin Owens
It’s David’s home state too, so I’m sure he’s gonna take the lead on it.
Joshua B. Hoe
Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate you taking the time in the middle of this crazy – like 20,000 people or something!
Kaitlin Owens
Anything to talk about criminal justice reform, I’m totally down to do it.
Thank you so much for having me.
Joshua B. Hoe
Well, thank you again. Bye bye.
Joshua B. Hoe
And now my take.
I want to take this opportunity to thank Robert Alvarez for helping the podcast as a volunteer over the last few years. Robert contacted me out of the blue close to two years ago because he was looking for a new challenge, and wanted to help out on a podcast that he liked about criminal justice reform. One of my favorite memories of Robert will always be when he decided to join me in New York City last year for the Smart on Crime Innovations Conference hosted by the Center for American Progress. Anyway, Robert was responsible for our current website; for our Patreon page; and for the look and design of our newsletter. He interviewed me for one of our Patreon series DecarcerationNation on Patreon; he created our current logo; and he was really always helpful whenever I needed help. Unfortunately, Robert is leaving to pursue a passion project of his own, and we will miss him dearly. His cheerful, helpful personality will be missed, as will his talent for web design. I will really, really miss him a great deal. I want to wish him great luck in all his future endeavors, including, of course his pending wedding. Robert, thanks again, for all the help; we will really miss you.
As always, you can find the show notes and/or leave us a comment at DecarcerationNation.com.
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Special thanks to Andrew Stein who does the editing and post-production for me; one last time to Robert Alvarez, who helps with the website; and to Kate Summers who is helping with the Instagram and Facebook pages and will be taking over many of the tasks that Robert has done in the past.
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Thanks so much for listening! See you next time.
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