Full Episode
My Guests: Kamal Lukata Anderson and Bridget McCormack
Kamal Lukata Anderson is a lifetime resident of Detroit and a bus driver.
He’s 47 years old and just 5 years ago he got his driver’s license back after experiencing years of being victimized by Michigan’s driver’s license suspension laws because he was unable to pay his tickets, fines and fees, and for not showing up to court in fear of getting incarcerated.
Last year Kamal told his story of systematic despair to the Michigan Jail and Pre trial Task force which eventually led to his testifying to lawmakers about this very situation which in turn played a vital role in convincing them to pass the Bill to reclassify and decriminalize drivers license suspensions.
Chief Justice Bridget Mary McCormack joined the Michigan Supreme Court in January 2013, and became Chief Justice in January 2019. Before her election to the Court in November 2012, she was a law professor and dean at the University of Michigan Law School. She is a graduate of the New York University Law School. She spent the first five years of her legal career in New York, first with the Legal Aid Society and then at the Office of the Appellate Defender. In 1996, she became a faculty fellow at the Yale Law School. In 2008, then-Associate Dean McCormack cofounded the Michigan Innocence Clinic, in which students represent wrongfully convicted Michiganders. The clinic has exonerated over 15 people so far, and has shined a light on the important justice issues underlying wrongful conviction. In 2018, the Michigan Association for Justice honored Chief Justice McCormack with its Judicial Excellence Award and Chief Justice McCormack will also be the 2021 recipient of the Milliken award awarded annually by Safe & Just Michigan
Watch the Interview on YouTube
You can listen to Episode 116 of the Decarceration Nation Podcast here or from your favorite podcast app or watch the interview on YouTube.
Notes from Episode 116 Kamal Lukata Anderson and Bridget McCormack
Kamal Lukata Anderson’s book is called “Legendary Detroit Mentality: An Urban Hip Hop Tale”
Chief Justice McCormack suggested reading this resource from Pew to learn more about the Jails Task Force.
The books Chief Justice McCormack recommended were:
“Prisoners of Politics” by Rachel Barkow
“Until We Reckon” by Danielle Sered
“Charged” by Emily Bazelon
Full Transcript:
Joshua B. Hoe
Hello and welcome to Episode 116 of the DecarcerationNation podcast, a podcast about radically reimagining America’s criminal justice system.
I’m Josh Hoe, and among other things, I’m formerly incarcerated; a freelance writer; a criminal justice reform advocate; a policy analyst; and the author of the book Writing Your Own Best Story: Addiction and Living Hope.
Today’s episode is a special episode about the Michigan Taskforce on Jail and Pretrial incarceration, whose recommendations have already resulted in 19 pieces of passed legislation.
First, I will interview Kemal Lukata Anderson about his life experience with driver’s license suspensions in Michigan. And then I’ll be talking with the Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, Bridget McCormack, about the parts of the Jail Task Force recommendations that became active on October 1, including end of incarceration for driver’s license suspensions, fines, and fees unrelated to reckless driving, and also what else we have to look forward to from the Jails Task Force in 2021.
So often, task forces are where good ideas in the legislature go to die. So what happened in Michigan over the past few years was pretty significant and should serve as a model for other states trying to get criminal justice reform work done.
Let’s get to my interviews with Kamal Lukata Anderson and Chief Justice McCormack.
Josh Hoe
Kamal Lukata Anderson is a lifetime resident of Detroit and a bus driver and is 47 years old. And just five years ago, he got his driver’s license back after experiencing years of being victimized by Michigan’s driver’s license suspension laws, because he was unable to pay his tickets, fines and fees and for not showing up to court for fear of getting incarcerated. Last year, Kamal told his story of systematic despair to the Michigan Jail and Pretrial Task Force, which eventually led to his testifying to lawmakers about this very situation. This in turn played a vital role in convincing them to pass the bill to reclassify and decriminalize driver’s license suspensions that went into effect today. Welcome to the DecarcerationNation podcast, Kamal.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Thank you, Joshua. Good to be on the show. I appreciate you.
Josh Hoe
Oh, thanks so much for coming on. I always start my interviews with the same question. It’s kind of the comic book origin story. How did you get from wherever you started to where you are talking to me here on the DecarcerationNation Podcast? And you can talk about anything you want about in your previous life. Just how did you get from there to here?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Well, initially, from the beginning, it started when I was a little bit younger, I was in my 20s, I’m 47 years old now when I first got out on the road driving and things like that. And I started getting pulled over in the suburbs of Detroit, for minor infractions such as my tail light is out or my muffler was, would be loud or something like that. And when they pulled me over, I may not have proof of insurance or things like that. And that initially turned into a large fee, that once I wasn’t able to pay, then it turned into a warrant. And that turned into a license suspension. And it eventually turned into a cycle of constantly being pulled over for minor infractions. And they were non-reckless driving offenses, pretty much non-driving offenses period. And eventually, I ended up paying a lot of money in fees and fines. I ended up spending jail time for having my license suspended over the years, and I had my license suspended several times. And living in Detroit, you know, at that time, I was working in the suburbs, working in various factories. And because of the transit system here, because our transit system is not as massive as most major cities, it’s pretty hard to get to employment without having a vehicle. And also in Detroit, the insurance rates have always been sky high, the automobile insurance rates, and so most Detroiters can’t afford to keep insurance on their vehicles. So I was kind of caught in a catch-22 and eventually, I got my license back but I had to file bankruptcy to get my driver’s license back. And even after doing that, I got caught up with driver responsibility fees, which pretty much tax individuals for not being able to afford to pay the tickets that they already had. And so my license was resuspended again. And it led to me being able to tell my story, after I finally got my license back for good five years ago, I was able to tell my story to Congress in Michigan, and be able to help in getting this law passed, that is in effect today.
Josh Hoe
I think people assume that when folks don’t pay their tickets, that must mean that they’re horrible people, or they’ve done something terrible, or they’re just irresponsible. But as you know, the charges build up pretty quickly. And people don’t always have the money necessary to pay the fines and fees. And they still need to get to work every day. So how did this – you told us a little bit about this – but how was this manifesting for you, when you’re going through it on every day in your life kind of way? What were you experiencing?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Um, obviously, I experienced exactly what you said, I was pretty much looked down on as a horrible person, I was humiliated, it played a role in my marriage, I had a lot of issues in my marriage, because of it because I couldn’t get certain jobs because there were jobs, that wasn’t driving jobs; they just wanted you to have a driver’s license. And I lost jobs because they found out I didn’t have a driver’s license. I was disqualified from certain employment because of that. I lost jobs going to jail because of my driver’s license suspensions. It was just a humiliating, debilitating situation. Um, I came out of a lot of money as well; it went on my credit, the driver responsibility fees added up and went on my credit, you know, which was one of the reasons I was able to file bankruptcy. You know, it affected my credit, and a lot of people don’t know that that happens as well. And so you pretty much feel like you’re a felon, like you’re a convict pretty much,, it’s no different. And what I call it is, I consider it a poverty tax. And anybody that has dealt with the justice system in America knows that a lot of times, it’s not about right or wrong, it’s about if you can afford justice if you can afford an attorney if you can afford to pay the fines or fees. If you can’t afford them, then you get the highest penalty possible.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, you testified at the Task Force hearing here in Michigan at Wayne State University. I was there. What was that process like for you? And what would you tell other people about themselves getting involved in those kinds of fights to change the way our law works in over-policed and underserved communities in Michigan?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
At that time, I saw an article in a paper that said that they were looking for people that had done it, who had experience with having troubles with driver’s suspension with driver’s license suspensions over the years. And that was right up my alley; when I saw that I immediately caught the bus downtown to Wayne State Law School. I mean, I couldn’t wait when I saw that. And I was just like, it was like the circus was coming to town.
Josh Hoe
You had a story to tell!
Kamal Lukata Anderson
I couldn’t wait. And so because I never thought that I would be able to get that story out and try to get some changes made. But when I got down there, and I saw those people down there, I said to myself, ah, they, they probably won’t listen to my story. But when I got a chance to speak, it seemed like it really touched so many people. And that really touched me. It really kind of, you know, it touched my heart because I never thought that not only would I be able to get my story out, but I never thought that it would touch so many people. But once I told my story, and what I went through, I guess it was something that a lot of people just didn’t know, they didn’t know that so many people have been really held back in their lives, simply because they couldn’t afford to pay tickets and because they had suspended licenses and so eventually testifying to Congress, that really, that felt good because to be able to talk to people that can make changes, and to see that they were all in, in terms of listening and wanting to take the steps to make the change. It really made me feel good. It was different from what I experienced over the last 25 years in Michigan.
Josh Hoe
You know, I want to repeat this, because I think people – even after hearing you talk about it – don’t realize that what we’re really talking about is driver’s license suspensions that happen for things other than dangerous driving. And that’s one of the biggest drivers of incarceration in Michigan, and we’re talking on October 1, 2021. And today is literally the day when the legislation that you’re talking about, that we’re talking about, passed to stop that practice, as a result of work that you’ve done, that I’ve done, that the Jails Task Force has done, that lots of people have done; we won’t continue to suspend licenses for these kinds of tickets. I think you’ve already explained how this would have changed your life. And how excited are you to have been a part of this? And what do you think about it going forward?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
I’m very excited. And the magnitude of my involvement in it shows with all of the people around me, who didn’t know that I was involved in something to that extent; all of my relatives, my friends, my work colleagues. And, you know, just so many people have been calling me because they, you know, saying that I’ve been associated with, with this new law that’s been out. And so many people are excited because now I’m seeing so many people out of the woodwork that are dealing with suspended licenses right now. And they are being held back. I’ve had people that have been excited, super, super excited, super happy. They’ve been thanking me for being a part of their process. And I understand, because I wish that someone was able to help be a part of a process back when I was going through it, that could help me get out of that situation at that time, which I never thought I would get through in this lifetime. So moving forward, I definitely look forward to being a part of the process of making sure that my voice is heard in speaking with lawmakers and speaking with law enforcement and speaking with community leaders and people all over the state of Michigan and just in America period, to try to help make changes to keep poor and underprivileged people, and financially and economically disadvantaged people from being predatory, predatorily targeted in the justice system, because it’s not just minor infractions, we know it’s major crimes as well. And underprivileged people are targeted. And to me, it’s predatory, you know, for them to do it that way, you know, the way the system is.
Josh Hoe
I know, when I do a lot of interviews, I get a little frustrated sometimes. And when I see interviews with friends of mine and stuff like that, that so much of the interview ends up being about the negativity or things that we had done or about incarceration or about post-incarceration, that nobody ever really gets to know anybody. And so I want to make sure and give you a chance to – what are some things – I just met you – tell me some stuff about you that isn’t related to all this? You know, let us hear a little bit of your story, tell me about you.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Well, I’m currently a bus driver, which, ironically, the day that I went down and spoke down at the Task Force, that day at Wayne State Law School, ironically, I had just started my job as a bus driver. And I had just gotten my CDL. And so that was something that I had been wanting, for a long time, I always wanted a CDL you know, always wanted to be able to do that. So I’m a bus driver right now. I’m also an author, I do have a book out right now. And it’s an urban novel. So I’m a writer. I definitely like to use my pen and write and express myself. I have a girlfriend and family and things.
Hold on, hold on, hold on. You got to say the name of the book, you know?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Oh, okay. Oh, okay. The name. I’m sorry. I will, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. The name of the book is, it’s called Legendary. And the subtitle is Detroit Mentality. And so it’s Legendary, Detroit Mentality.
And that’s an urban novel. And my middle name, Lukata, is what I go by as the author of that book, so it can be found on Amazon. And so yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to put that out here.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, you gotta plug your stuff, man.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Joshua. And I’m pretty much, I’m trying to get involved with making changes out here, you know, every chance I get, anything I can get involved with, to try to pursue my passion with making changes so that people like myself and people, you know, that go through, they have been through what I’ve been through, don’t have to go through those things again, so that’s pretty much it.
Josh Hoe
Great. I always ask the same last question. What question should I have asked, but did not? What would you have liked to talk about that I didn’t get to?
Kamal Lukata Anderson
I would say, what was my favorite sports team?
Josh Hoe
That’s fine. We’re a sports-friendly podcast here at Decarceration Nation.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
I’m a big Detroit fan, you know, so I’m a fan of the Pistons, Lions, Red Wings, and Tigers. I got on a Raiders jersey right now just because it looks good. I think Raiders jerseys look good on everybody. But I’m a big Detroit fan. And I’m a proud Detroiter, I’m proud of where . . . . is right now. I am so proud. And this today, this, the passing of this, this law, the enactment of this law is representative of the forward movement, that Detroit as a city and Michigan as a state is going forward into. And I’m just proud; today is a very proud day in Detroit, there’s so many people that are excited. And you know, we are, Michigan is a blue-collar state and with some hard-working people, and, you know, it’s just good to know that, that we bought this, this was a concerted effort that, in terms of enacting this law, and I just want to thank all the people that really, really came together to put this together. I really do.
Josh Hoe
Well, thanks so much, man. It’s really good, really nice to get to talk to you. And I really appreciate you doing this.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
You as well, you as well. Joshua, I thank you for reaching out to me, I appreciate it. And I’ve heard so much about the show. You have a wonderful show. And hopefully, I can come back again.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll make sure and put a link to your book in the show notes too.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I definitely appreciate that.
Josh Hoe
All right, brother. You have a good one and very nice meeting you.
Kamal Lukata Anderson
All right. You as well. You have a wonderful day.
Josh Hoe
Chief Justice Bridget Mary McCormack joined the Michigan Supreme Court in January 2013 and became Chief Justice in January 2019. Before her election to the court in November 2012, she was a law professor and Dean at the University of Michigan Law School. She is a graduate of New York University Law School. She spent the first five years of her legal career in New York, first with the Legal Aid Society and then with the Office of the Appellate Defender. In 1996, she became a faculty fellow at Yale Law School. In 2008, then Associate Dean McCormack co-founded the Michigan Innocence Clinic in which students represent wrongfully convicted Michiganders. The clinic has exonerated over 15 people so far, maybe more since last I wrote this down, and it shined a light on the important justice issues underlying wrongful conviction. In 2018, the Michigan Association for Justice honored Chief Justice McCormack, with its Judicial Excellence Award, and Chief Justice McCormack will also be the 2021 recipient of the Milliken Award, awarded annually by Safe and Just Michigan. Welcome back to the DecarcerationNation podcast Chief Justice McCormack.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
It is great to be back. Thank you for having me.
Josh Hoe
Oh, my pleasure. I always start with the same first question. And it’s kind of the comic book origin story question. How did you get from wherever you started in life to where you became the chief justice of the Michigan supreme court? I know that’s a big one.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
It’s a big question. And I have sort of, I think, an unusual path. I am not somebody who went to law school to be a judge. In fact, I don’t think I ever thought about being a judge until about a year before I ran for office. In fact, you know, if someone went to law school to be a judge, they probably would not have spent most of their career representing people accused of crimes. That’s not usually the path to the bench.
Josh Hoe
Unfortunately, unfortunately, it’s not.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
I think more diversity on our bench is a good thing. But through a series of unusual events I ended up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, teaching at the University of Michigan Law School – Go Blue! – and there was an open seat on the Michigan Supreme Court, and I had an appellate practice where I was in that court quite a bit, and had good relationships with the justices and people started talking to me about thinking about running. And I think, because I was naive enough to do it, I did it. And then I was elected. And so there I was, but I spent most of my career as a lawyer representing people who couldn’t afford lawyers. And that was what I cared about, thought about, wrote about, and thought I would always do. So it was not a well-thought-through career path for me, but here I am.
Josh Hoe
And what took you to the law in the first place? How did you end up in the place . . . what was the real origin of your journey?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, good question. I have a big family. I mean, my immediate family is not that big, just a brother and sister. But I have dozens and dozens of first cousins. And I don’t have a single other person in my family who is a lawyer. So it wasn’t a path that was well-paved for me. However, I have my Godmother, I was always quite close to; she didn’t have kids of her own, and I think I got special godmother attention. I think both of my siblings had one of my aunts who had a gazillion kids of their own, and so they couldn’t even keep track of who their god kids were. But my Godmother played a big role in my life. And she lived in New York City, I grew up in New Jersey, and she was a legal aid lawyer. And I would go into the city and spend a couple of days with her and go to work with her. And I really think that was probably the most formative relationship for me in thinking about the law as a tool for helping people in our communities.
Josh Hoe
Traditionally, task forces and politics are kind of, at least everybody always says, are where good ideas go to die. That did not happen with the Task Force on Jail and Pretrial Incarceration in Michigan. Can you remind everyone about how it came about and was created? And what, in your opinion, made it different from the traditional task force that we see nothing come out of in a lot of other parts of the country?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, the Michigan Joint Task Force on Jail and Pretrial Incarceration is quite a success story and one that I’m particularly proud of, not necessarily for my own work on it, but just the work that so many people did to contribute to it. But to remind everybody about how it came to be, all three branches of government the leaders in the legislature, the governor and I, together with the County Sheriff’s and the Michigan Association of Counties, entered into a joint agreement with the Pew Charitable Trust, to help us collect and understand data about what was driving Michigan’s county jail populations. Now, stepping back even a little bit further, Michigan’s county jail populations, like many other states, this didn’t make us special really, had tripled over the last 30 years, even though crime was at a 50-year low. And lots of people had ideas about why that was, but they were mostly anecdotal. They were not evidence-based, because we did not have a system for collecting data to understand what was driving those jail populations. But there was enough interest, given the cost of jails and the fact that nobody was really confident that the rising jail population was really contributing to public safety, that we wanted to figure it out and see if there were smarter policies, once we could understand that data. What made it so successful is a harder question. I think that having Pew staff was a huge part of the success. It is not that often that you get that many talented analysts, helping you collect and analyze the data and organizing stakeholders around the State so that we were really including every voice, and frankly, the Pew has done a great publication on the Task Force process, which maybe you should link to in your show notes here because I think that tells the story quite well for folks who are interested in looking at the model. But I think the ways in which we made sure the Task Force itself included every stakeholder, and then the hard work, talking to the public, and hearing from the public, throughout the process were big parts of the success. And then I have to hand it to the legislative leaders. We delivered, our Task Force delivered its recommendations in January of 2020. And we all know, you know, what happened a couple of months later, and the legislative leaders decided they were still going to make it a priority to make sure that they acted on those recommendations. And that, I think, was a much heavier lift in the middle of a pandemic. And they did it.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, I can definitely say as somewhat of a fringe player, but who was present for the entire Task Force process, the Pew people did a great job. I’ve gotten to know almost all of them over that period. And it is pretty impressive. The last time you were on the podcast, almost two years ago, none of the Task Force bills had yet passed. You hadn’t even made your recommendations at that time. Can you summarize some of the recommendations the Task Force made that really – or are in the process of, as a lot of them just became active on October 1 – really made to reduce jail populations.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
The Task Force recommendations kind of fell into three buckets: a set of recommendations that were aimed at the arrest phase, when people end up in jail; a set of recommendations that were aimed at the pre-trial phase; and then a second set of recommendations aimed at the post-conviction phase because we learned once we collected the data in Michigan that while half of the people in Michigan’s county jails were not convicted, half were convicted, some serving time for violations of probation and parole that were sort of technical violations. So we felt like we needed recommendations to address each of those different parts of the process that were contributing to our jail populations. And, and a number of those, as you said, have already now been enacted into law. Yes, when we last spoke, we didn’t even have the recommendations together yet. But since then, a lot has gone on. And so last session, the legislature passed and the governor signed legislation that expanded officer discretion to use appearance tickets as an alternative to arrest in jail, legislation that reduces the use of arrest warrants to enforce court appearances and payments, legislation to presume sentences other than jail for most misdemeanors and some felonies, and legislation to shorten probation terms and limit jail time for technical probation violations. And finally, the biggest set of reforms that have just come online in the last couple of days are a series of bills to stop suspending and revoking driver’s licenses for actions that have nothing to do with driving safety. We were shocked when we learned how many people were going to Michigan jails because of a suspended driver’s license. And so there was a very broad agreement that that was something we could do something about, and it would make a big difference
Josh Hoe
As someone who testified on citations in lieu of arrests at the Task Force, I’m particularly happy that some of those things have come to law. Many of the recommendations, as you just mentioned, were passed last year. I’ve been involved with a certain number of things that have passed; it’s always an interesting process. What were your takeaways from how this happened, what happened, where we’re at, and how you feel now about it?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Honestly, it was really an honor to be part of this particular process. Because it felt like even where there was some disagreement – which of course, there always will be when you have diverse viewpoints around a table – everyone was pretty committed to getting something important done, and we felt like Michigan was a good place to show the country that there are actually still policy issues that Republicans and Democrats can agree about and do something about, and Michigan I think has this great track record for bipartisan criminal justice reform. And so this was a wonderful chapter in that story, it was really an honor to be a part of it. The judiciary has important information for the other branches of government as they think about policy, sometimes we in fact have the most important information. So I think making us a partner in figuring out how to make these changes was a really good idea and a model that I hope we continue, as we look at some of the other places where reform is still on the table.
Josh Hoe
You mentioned a couple of seconds ago, the driver’s license suspensions and reforms to that. That reform just went into effect on October 1, and today’s October 4. Earlier during this episode, I was able to talk to Kamal Lukata Anderson who was directly impacted by license suspensions during his lifetime. From your perspective, why was it particularly important for the task force to focus on the issue of driver’s license suspensions? And what do you think that’s going to mean for our state going forward?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, this is a set of reforms that I’m especially excited about. It was really stunning how many people, as I said, were spending time in Michigan jails because their driver’s license had been suspended. And not because they were charged with reckless driving or driving under the influence, but instead, because they had been unable to pay a fine or a fee, in some other case that had nothing to do with driving safety. And this was a quick area of agreement for most of us, that that doesn’t make a lot of sense, probably doesn’t make a lot of sense in most places. But here in Michigan, we drive to work. You know, there are some communities where we have some bus routes. I live in Washtenaw County, and parts of Washtenaw County have excellent buses; not where I live, I can’t get a bus. If I’m going to get to my work, I’m going to have to get in my car. And if we’re taking people’s ability to drive away from them, because they are unable to pay a fine or a fee, it’s very clearly counterproductive. Because you probably want them to be able to get to work so they can pay that fine or fee. So this felt like sort of an easy area for policy agreement. What was shocking was how many people were impacted by it. About 350,000 people in Michigan each year had their license suspended for these reasons that have nothing to do with driving safety. So the reforms that came online on Friday, October 1, automatically restored driver’s licenses to 10s of 1000s of people and made a bunch of others eligible. But going forward, it’s that amount that you know, 350,000 a year, who will be able to continue to get to work and therefore pay their outstanding obligations and their child support and their taxes. And, you know, our employers need them at work. So I think this set of reforms is one that will have a tremendous impact throughout the state, not just on those individuals and their families, but on our workforce and our communities.
Josh Hoe
And I think it’s interesting because so many people – even if I were just listening to this for the first time, I don’t think it would occur to me that driver’s license suspensions, suspensions unrelated to traffic, to actually causing harm, are one of the largest drivers of incarceration in our state. It’s just crazy that that was the case. And it’s so good to see so many people potentially getting relief.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, it’s really important. In the Wayne County Jail, it was the single-highest reason people were entering the Wayne County Jail. But statewide, it was the third-highest reason people were going to jail. I’m glad we did something about it.
Josh Hoe
I totally agree. It’s an amazing accomplishment. Can you also talk about the work you’re doing with the Jail Reform Advisory Council to ensure the laws are implemented properly after all this stuff passed? Because one of the big problems that we also noticed, I think throughout the process of the task force, is there’s a lot of problems with coordination between different systems and different counties, to make sure that these laws are implemented properly, and data is tracked going forward.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, so one of the recommendations in fact, the last recommendation, last but not at all least, of the task force was to invest and engage in robust criminal justice data collection going forward, not just to be able to get a sense of how these reforms are performing, but for you know, a million other reasons. Without good data, it’s hard to know whether policies that we pass are having the impact we hope they will have. So the Jail Reform Advisory Council that the Governor set up and appointed me to chair, has all of the system stakeholders represented, and we meet monthly to discuss how the reforms are working so far, and what data we can collect, and then how we can figure out what to do with it so that we can report back to the Governor and the Legislature, as well as the court, about how these reforms are working out in practice. It’s one thing to get the data to be able to make smart decisions about reforms. But it doesn’t make a lot of sense to put those in place, and then never look again at how they’re doing. So this Advisory Council is charged with doing exactly that.
Josh Hoe
We talked a little bit earlier about some of the top-level people who are involved like Pew, and the Governor and Leadership of the House and in the Senate. But there were so many people involved at all different levels throughout the process, everyone from people like me, to activists, and people coming from across the state to show up at the meetings to tell their stories. Can you talk about how the task force incorporated everyone, from all those folks to task force members, to Sheriffs, Prosecutors, victim advocacy groups, all these folks and brought them under the tent and made sure that everything was incorporated in the final result?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, in addition to the task force itself, having really diverse stakeholder representation, as you said, in addition to those three branches of government, we had police and sheriffs and prosecutors and defense attorneys and people impacted by crime and people who spent time in jail. And those voices were important at the task force table. But in addition to that, the task force met over the course of its existence repeatedly with stakeholders, in focus groups, and roundtables to get even more information. And at each public task force meeting, we made lots of time for public testimony. And that was, frankly, incredibly impactful. We heard at those sessions from people who worked in the system, people who had gotten caught up in the system, people who had survived terrible things, and not felt always completely supported by the current system. And that sort of qualitative evidence was almost as impactful as the quantitative evidence. It really was. And I think it made an important impression on all of us that the work we were doing was important, right? There were people who had experienced the system from every direction, who definitely saw room for improvement, right? If there was one thing that people agreed about, it was that we were on the right track to try and figure out smarter policies for jails.
Josh Hoe
We still have some recommendations of the Task Force outstanding, and we’re starting to see those pretty soon, in the next couple of weeks, probably start their path through the legislative process. Could you summarize some of these last bills and talk about the impact that they could have? 3
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, absolutely. There’s a couple, I would say there’s sort of two different buckets of bills, and the first concern was behavioral health issues. One of the things we learned, which didn’t surprise any of us, was how often jails become the de facto mental health and substance abuse treatment location for a community because there’s nowhere else for people to take people suffering a crisis. And that’s frankly, unfair to the police officers and the deputy sheriffs who are charged with those crises. So there are two bills that have been introduced in the Senate, Senate Bill 637 and Senate Bill 638 – if anybody wants to follow them – along with funding in the budget, that would create a grant program for counties to either create, if they don’t have one, or expand jail diversion programs for people with behavioral health challenges. As I said, we heard so much testimony about jails being the place where people went who are suffering these crises, and obviously, that’s not necessarily the best place. So this grant program will be a way to experiment with different ways of handling people who are suffering mental health crises and behavioral health crises. There’s a second package of bills, pre-trial bills, that’s planned for introduction in the House, I believe early this month. These are the bills that will focus on pre-trial incarceration. They’re designed to protect public safety and safeguard liberty for people who are presumed innocent. And the task force found that about half of people in our county jails are presumed innocent, and many are there for low-level offenses for which they simply can’t pay bond. And there’s really good national research now that even a few days in jail will have lasting negative effects on people in terms of housing, families, and even recidivism. So these bills have bipartisan sponsors, they’ve been vetted by diverse stakeholders, including prosecutors, judges, law enforcement, victims’ advocates, and they will, to summarize, allow most people arrested for low-level offenses to be released from jail quickly without paying money and get them back to work, back to their families, and detain only people with serious offenses, or those who pose safety or a flight risk when that’s important. So the hope is that these will be a smarter approach to pre-trial.
Josh Hoe
You talked a little bit earlier about how Michigan’s had a lot of success with bipartisanship and criminal justice reform. But we’ve seen some of that at the national level too, recently, over the last several years, but is there something, having been through it and working with both sides of the aisle, to help see a lot of this stuff happen? Is there anything you’ve seen – we’re in the middle of a national dialogue, where it seems like there’s a million things we can never find a way to work together on. What are your reflections on how we’ve been able to move forward with so much in a State that is very divided politically, even if we are able to come together on these issues?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Michigan really does have quite a story to tell on bipartisan criminal justice reform. And honestly, I bet there are people who are more eloquent about that history than I am. I will say that the criminal legal system has impacted most of us at this point, right? What we learned from the data we collected is that rural jails have their jail populations and in rural communities, their growth has outpaced jails in suburban and urban communities. So the ways in which people are getting caught up in the county jail system cross every kind of demographic, and I think lots of people with maybe differences of opinions on other policy questions, have seen that we can probably do better with how we think about what we’re doing to achieve public safety. And I think people come to the table with maybe different first principles for getting there, but they have more in common than not on these issues. And I think the track record helps. I think having achieved some big wins in terms of expungement and some other areas, it feels like something we can get done and so people seem eager to do it. And again, I really have to credit my partners in the other branches of government; the Lieutenant Governor, by the way, was an unbelievable C- chair who really put all kinds of time into getting this task force to a place where we could actually see some real reform, and the leaders in the Legislature really stepped up and so I hope lots of people will try it in other states and will want to learn about what we did here in Michigan. We’re still doing it, but what we’ve gotten done so far.
Josh Hoe
This season, I’ve been asking people to share their favorite criminal justice-related books. Do you have any favorites you’d like to share?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
You probably know the books that I’ve read recently, you probably have talked to all of the authors. So Rachel Barkow’s book – I think you’ve probably had Rachel on – but I think her book is an excellent one. I loved Danielle Sered’s book . . .
Josh Hoe
[Rachel Barkow’s book] Prisoners of PoliticsChief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yes, Prisoners of Politics I’m sorry, is a wonderful, wonderful book. And you know, even though Rachel is a very successful legal academic, you don’t have to be a legal scholar to read it and understand it. And I Iove when law professors can write books for regular people, which I think Rachel did well. I loved Danielle Sered’s book When We Reckon and I think it’s a really important contribution to how we’re going to think about the next steps in criminal legal system reform. And Emily Bazelon’s book, Charged, is a wonderful book because I think when you tell real stories about real people, it impacts us in a way that sticks with us. So those are three that I’ve enjoyed. And I think you know all those folks.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, I’m patting myself on the back, because I have had all three of them on to talk about their books. So I’m feeling pretty good about that. I always ask the same last question, what did I mess up? What question should I have asked, but did not?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
I can’t think of anything you messed up at all!
Josh Hoe
Well, I like to at least pretend a little bit of humility in these things. Fair enough. Take a minute, but if there’s anything else you’d like to talk about, or anything else that you’re thinking about . . .
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
I will tell you there’s one thing that I’m . . . the pandemic has brought more change to courts and legal systems in 18 months than in, you know, a century, literally; I mean, courtrooms in February 2020 looked a lot like they did in 1918, the last time we had a pandemic; nothing has changed. And we’ve learned so much about access to justice that we wouldn’t have learned but for the pandemic. And in particular, the civil legal system, where most people who have really important problems can’t afford lawyers, eight out of 10, people can’t afford lawyers. We’ve seen incredible results in defaults going way down when people are able to access courts with remote platforms. We can’t turn away from that. And I’ve been thinking a lot lately about all of the overlap between the civil legal system where people can’t afford lawyers, but end up losing the place where they live, or you know, their family. These are important legal issues, even if jail isn’t involved, but there’s so much overlap between the people who have to manage the criminal legal system, where at least they get a lawyer if they can’t afford one, and the civil legal system. And the people working on both sets of problems I want talking to each other more. So there’s one thought that I’ve been having a lot lately, for whatever it’s worth.
Josh Hoe
And do you feel like there’s anything you’ve learned from the process? You’ve been involved in, trying to technologically modernize and equalize the court, access to the courts for a long time? Is there anything you’ve seen through the pandemic specifically that people might learn from or might take to other court systems?
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Yeah, well, one thing that I think is sort of a stunning fact that we just can’t turn away from, is how many people who used to default when they had to go to a physical courthouse to defend, say, an eviction or a debt collection case, and no longer do default, when they have a remote option, is something we’re gonna, we’re just going to have to reckon with going forward. If access is important to us, and in my view, it’s fundamental to the rule of law that everybody is able to access their legal system, then we’re going to have to keep what we’ve learned about democratizing access. But I don’t think it’s enough just to take traditional court and put it on a zoom screen. I mean, it’s not nothing we’ve learned, it’s not nothing. In fact, it’s something important in a lot of ways, but we’re at a moment right now, where we’re going to have to think broader and bigger about what we might do to transform access to justice; we’ve never really done much other than sort of nibble at it around the edges. And we have a chance now to do some bigger things.
Josh Hoe
That’s very exciting.
Thanks so much for doing this, Chief Justice, and for all your work with the Task Force and everything else, and for just spending some time with us today. Thanks again for doing this.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
It’s my pleasure. I love anytime I get to talk to you.
Josh Hoe
It’s so nice for you to say, have a great day.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack
Thank you, you too!
Josh Hoe
And now my take.
In 2019, the Department of Justice released a report on the crisis in Alabama prisons, finding that the Alabama Department of Corrections had violated the Eighth Amendment rights of people incarcerated in their prisons. Why? Because they were not protecting the people in their care from violence and abuse, and because they were not providing a safe environment for the people incarcerated in their care. In addition, Alabama’s prisons were overcrowded, holding over 182% above capacity. One year after that first report was released, a second report was released by the DOJ, finding that the Alabama Department of Corrections employees routinely used excessive force against the people incarcerated in their prisons. They found that physical assaults often involving the use of batons and chemical spray were routine and frequently intentional. For some inexplicable reason, the Governor and legislature of Alabama have decided that the answer to this problem is to build several new private prison facilities, spending hundreds of millions of dollars. To many of us on the reform side, it seems unclear how building new prisons makes the correctional officers more responsible and less reprehensible; how it makes the standard of care higher, or how it changes the broken and violent culture so omnipresent, that even the Trump Justice Department found it to be beyond the pale. I can only pray that somehow this works out and makes one of the worst and most violent prison systems of the United States safer for the people incarcerated in Alabama. I can’t for the life of me figure out how this will change the culture, result in the hiring of more correctional officers, or ensure that those officers protect the people placed in their care. But I will pray that happens so that our brothers and sisters inside those prisons can be safer.
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