Joshua B. Hoe interviews Stanford Fraser about his run for State’s attorney in Prince George’s County Maryland
Full Episode:
My Guest: Stanford Fraser
Stanford Fraser is a Public Defender in Prince George’s County and lives with his wife, Michele Hall, in Largo Maryland. He graduated from Howard University, in 2013, where he studied History and Community Development. After graduating from Howard he attended Harvard Law School. At Harvard, he spent his second and third years representing low-income tenants and homeowners facing eviction. Since August 2017, he has worked as a public defender. During his time as a public defender, Stanford has tried over 100 criminal cases and has represented thousands of clients. He is currently running for State’s Attorney in Prince George’s County Maryland.
Notes from Episode 109: Stanford Fraser
The book Stanford recommended was Ghettoside by Jill Leovy.
Here is Stanford Frasers campaign website.
Full Transcript:
Hello and welcome to Episode 109 of the Decarceration Nation podcast, a podcast about radically reimagining America’s criminal justice system.
I’m Josh Hoe, and among other things, I’m formerly incarcerated; a freelance writer; a criminal justice reform advocate; a policy analyst; and the author of the book Writing Your Own Best Story: Addiction and Living Hope.
Today’s episode is my interview with Stanford Fraser about his run for State’s Attorney in Prince George’s County, Maryland. Stanford Fraser is a public defender in Prince George’s County and lives with his wife Michelle Hall in Largo, Maryland. He graduated from Howard University in 2013, where he studied history and community development. After graduating from Howard, he attended Harvard Law School. At Harvard, he spent his second and third years representing low income tenants and homeowners facing eviction. Since August 2017 he has worked as a public defender. During his time as a public defender Stanford has tried over 100 criminal cases and has represented 1000s of clients. He is currently running for State’s Attorney in Prince George’s County, Maryland.
Josh Hoe
Welcome to the DecarcerationNation podcast Frasier.
Stanford Fraser
Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Josh Hoe
Oh, it’s my pleasure.
I always ask a version of the same first question. How did you get from where you started in life to where you are a public defender running for State’s Attorney in Maryland? That’s such a big question, right? Yeah. I like the origin question because it lets people add color to their history of getting to where they are today.
Stanford Fraser
No, definitely. I always tell people, it’s a little cheesy, but I first got the idea of becoming a lawyer in elementary school. And it was literally during Black History Month at Oak Ridge Elementary School. And I remember learning about Thurgood Marshall. He’s a Marylander. We’re very proud of him. I remember the story being told understandable. Right. The story was told to us that he couldn’t go to the University of Maryland law school because of segregation. He went to Howard Law instead. But then, you know, he did work at NAACP and became a Supreme Court Justice. And to young me, that was so inspirational. That’s when I was like, alright, I kind of didn’t really understand it fully. But at that moment, I was like, I definitely want to become a lawyer when I grow up.
Josh Hoe
Well, that’s a pretty good starting place. Is there anything else on your journey? Were there times where you questioned that that was what you wanted to do? How did you end up being a public defender?
Stanford Fraser
So I guess I’d have to go back to my time at Howard University. Howard is an HBCU and has a rich history of social justice and activism. You know, people like Stokely Carmichael have come through my university. And when I was a sophomore in 2011, me and a whole bunch of other students became involved in the campaign around the death penalty, but in particular, around Troy Davis. And I remember, on the day you said to be executed, since Howard’s in DC, we literally marched from campus to the White House, and we had a protest from like noon to 7pm at the White House. And I remember when the Supreme Court issued the stay, basically saying, you know, it’s a pause in the execution proceedings, he wouldn’t be executed that night, there was cheers, we were super happy. Then I remember that feeling of dejection at around 11pm, when the stay was lifted, and then the State of Georgia executed Troy Davis. And I remember I carried that kind of hurt feeling with me for a couple of weeks, until Ben Jealous, he was head of the NAACP at the time, came to Howard’s campus, and he’s giving a talk and he pointed to a map. He pointed and said down the road is Annapolis, about an hour down the road. And Annapolis is the state capital of Maryland. And he said Annapolis has a democratic governor, democratic state house and a democratic state senate. But they still have the death penalty. And I mean, I think at that point, me and a whole bunch of students at Howard basically dedicated our time, like with student government, organizing protests rallies in Maryland, really trying to repeal the death penalty. And I’m really proud that in 2013, Maryland did repeal the death penalty. So I think I knew I wanted to become a lawyer. And then at Howard, I became involved in the anti-death penalty work and fighting to change the legal system. When I came to law school, I think I wanted to continue working in that criminal legal system.
Josh Hoe
You know, it’s interesting that you bring that up. Because over the last several years, unfortunately, we saw the federal death penalty ramped back up during the last administration. And there’s been an increase for, an appetite for things like firing squads in certain states – I think South Carolina – and a lot of resistance to even careful consideration of appeals to death penalty cases and recent Supreme Court jurisdiction. I mean, I’m sorry, jurisprudence. What made you come to your conclusions on the death penalty? What would you say to people, some of whom are current Supreme Court Justices, who seem annoyed that people try to slow or stop the use of the death penalty?
Stanford Fraser
I think some of the things that made me an anti-death penalty activist would just, you know, for one, it’s permanent and mistakes are made. I think I checked, from relatively recently and I think since 1973 – that’s when the death penalty was brought back in the 70s – there’s been over 180 people that have been released or exonerated from death row on grounds of innocence, right? So mistakes can be made in the criminal legal process, and we don’t want to ever execute an innocent person. And I also think I think the death penalty is really a microcosm of some of the racial and like economic biases in the legal system, right? People are, I think I was looking at the faces and basically like 77%, or high 70% of the people that are on death row are for killing a white individual. So you your chances of getting the death penalty is extensively higher if the victim is white, the homicide victim is white, versus any other race or ethnicity. And then I think in the State of Maryland, in particular, there was a study, that was part of the study when we were advocating to repeal the death penalty, that basically black individuals that killed white, that had white victims of homicide, were I think four and five times more likely to face death penalty because of biases in the legal system,
Josh Hoe
I understand that disparity is a real problem with trying to look at the death penalty, but do you think there’s a moral case to be made when people have done some terrible – it isn’t necessarily racially disparate – and they still want to apply the death penalty? Because I think for a lot of people, they’ll say, Well, sure, there are problems that we might need to fix things, but we still should have a death penalty. And you know, obviously, you don’t agree to some extent, I definitely don’t agree. So I was just wondering what your thinking was there.
Stanford Fraser
I think, hey, if you look at industrialized nations, industrialized nations with democracies, the United States is basically the only one that still has the death penalty. I think some of these problems with the death penalty, I say it’s a microcosm of the criminal legal system, these are inherent in society, and you can’t fix them without fixing those problems inherent in society. Without being able to fix those problems, we should still get rid of the death penalty. And then lastly, I finish on the moral question, right. And when we talk about state- sanctioned murder, and killing of human beings, their own citizens, I just don’t see that as something that we want to have in a just society.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, I definitely think trying to tell people that killing is wrong by killing folks doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You’re running for Prosecutor, I think some people, including myself, have been very supportive of the reformed prosecutor movement, while others think that it’s kind of impossible to have a good prosecutor, that there’s something inherently wrong with that system. What are your feelings on the debate about using the carceral state’s tools to take down parts of the carceral state? Where do you come on this continuum of, for lack of a better term, the anti-carceral kind of abolitionist stance in terms of prosecution?
Stanford Fraser
So this is something I had to have an internal debate with myself [about] before I even announced or came to this decision. If I look at my platform, I think I can do a lot of harm reduction, I can improve the office in many ways, but my job is still going to involve caging human beings, encasing human beings. You know, I think if you look at our founding documents, it’s life, liberty, pursuit of happiness – like liberty – so taking away individuals’ liberty is one of the most serious things that government can do. When I think about that, I think you want someone who’s reluctant or hesitant to take away people’s liberty, just knowing how important that is in that type of position of power. I think, on a more macro scale, I don’t know how to get more macro than, you know, talking about principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think there are powers in the legal system that the State’s Attorneys’ Office has, that this movement is saying, Well, actually, instead of using those powers to ramp up incarceration, to have longer sentences, we can use those powers to de-ramp mass incarceration, but it isn’t the ultimate solution. It’s just a step along the way. And I think ….. harm reduction policies.
Josh Hoe
I think that makes sense. Across most cities in this country, since the onset of COVID, we’ve seen a dramatic increase in homicide and domestic violence. This increase has happened in GOP-led cities, cities run by Democrats that want tough on crime prosecutors, and cities with so-called reform prosecutors, regardless of the causes, things like this seemed to really scare folks. How do you talk to people about remaining committed to reform while folks are also afraid of these jumps in crime?
Stanford Fraser
I think what’s important, and you put in your question, is that this is happening in reform cities and jurisdictions, it’s happening in non-reformed towns, these are happening in Democratic-led jurisdictions. This is happening in Republican-led jurisdictions. So there’s not a policy constant that you can point to that says, Oh, that’s because of this job. The way I describe it, I’m trying to imagine a new vision of justice in Prince George’s County that hasn’t been implemented yet. So you can’t argue that these new policies that we’re fighting to implement are the cause of these concerns. I think the second point I like to talk about is, you know, we talk about long sentences and mass incarceration. It’s not individuals serving misdemeanors; but when you talk about an individual’s most likely interaction with the criminal legal system, it’s through the misdemeanor system. I think studies show about 70 to 80% of contacts are through misdemeanors. And I tell people when officers are patrolling neighborhoods, arresting someone for drug possession, bringing them down to the station. fingerprinting them, dragging up evidence, then they have to come back to court a month later, they’re gathering 911 calls, or talking to the prosecutors about this misdemeanor case, then the case gets continued, they have to come to court, again, in another four weeks. All of that time and energy spent by police officers, as well as prosecutors, that’s time and energy not actually going towards some of those serious offenses that do endanger the public safety, like homicide, that people are concerned about. So I say, Oh, great, great, we’re gonna stop prosecuting homeless people for disorderly conduct and trespass; we’re gonna stop prosecuting people recreationally using misdemeanor levels of drugs; and then we can use those resources for those things people are concerned about. So I think they work in tandem.
Josh Hoe
In a lot of the data that I’ve seen, it suggests that a lot of the resources of law enforcement are put into misdemeanor enforcement and relatively little resources are often put into more serious crimes, and as a result, or maybe as a result of other problems, the clearance rates for major crimes are still fairly high. Do you have a feeling having been a defense lawyer for a long time as to why priorities seem to be focused mostly on misdemeanor enforcement throughout the justice system?
Stanford Fraser
That’s a heavy question. That’s a really heavy question. I think partly. . . . . lawyers, sometimes we speak, but I like to think about my words, make sure they match the weight of the question. I think one thing that’s really important to think about is, when especially in some of these misdemeanor cases, really all you might need to prosecute is one witness or two witnesses. So it’s one thing that you have a police officer, they come and testify in court, you can maybe make that case if you’re from the Prosecutor’s Office. So it’s a low-hanging fruit to get. I think another point is, we have a large criminal code, I say in Prince’s County, for example, one thing that’s banned is owning a pitbull, but not only is it illegal, it’s actually a misdemeanor, punishable by up to six months in jail. So I’d argue we have too many things in the criminal code that we have criminalized. And because we have so many things, some things ridiculous – I would hope you agree that people shouldn’t go to jail for giving a loving dog a home – because that code is so large, that’s why there’s so many contacts [and] misdemeanors. And that’s why so much time and energy is spent on these misdemeanor enforcements that I don’t think jeopardize the public safety at all. Part of my pitch to the community members is we’re going to stop these, we’re gonna stop prosecuting these non-violent misdemeanors that aren’t endangering public safety. And then that leaves more resources, more time, right, more energy to the actual matters that people do care about.
Josh Hoe
I don’t know if I’m the best test for what should be and not be prosecuted. Because there’s a whole slew of things I don’t think should be prosecuted, many of which people think are probably more serious. But I definitely take your point. Many people saw the recent District Attorney’s race in Philadelphia, and given the current environment as if it were a referendum on reform. But what we saw was that in the communities that were most directly impacted, up to 80% of the people voted to re-elect Larry Krasner. What do you think the media and traditional sources have been getting wrong about what victims and directly-impacted communities think about our criminal justice apparatus?
Stanford Fraser
That’s a good question. I guess I want to start by saying, you know, there’s not a lot of research on that election, yet. I would love to get more on-the-ground reporting, just talking to different voters, and trying to get more of what they were thinking. But from my experience, it’s the same communities, the same communities that are over- policed, that individuals are being arrested for trespass or disorderly conduct, people are being stopped for misdemeanor drug offenses for the smell of marijuana. Those are the same communities that experience, that may experience higher levels of other more serious offenses. So it’s when you try to fearmonger them they go Well, I know individuals in my community who’ve been prosecuted for these little events that I don’t think impact the public safety, right; we’ve been a victim of maybe police excessive force, because they had lived experience that probably shapes how they view what’s happening and how they view what prosecution policies they do want in their communities.
Josh Hoe
That makes sense. It’s a good lead into this next question. When I was doing research for this interview, I saw that you said one of the reasons that you ran is that people don’t know what’s happening in the courthouse, and they want to be part of that educational opportunity. What would you like people to know about what you’ve seen in the courts in your area and across the country?
Stanford Fraser
So one story I’ve been telling is that my wife is a public defender as well. She’s now in Criminal Appeals, but she was representing kids and juveniles for about two years. And she had a case in the last 18 months when she had a kid that was charged as an adult. In Maryland, when a kid is charged as an adult, they have a right to something called a transfer hearing where you ask the court to please move this case back down to juvenile court. And in her case, the prosecutor assigned to her case will agree to transfer, will consent to transfer, whoo right? Victory! Then the prosecutor said, but only if your client pleads guilty. And I was appalled by that, because I don’t believe any child belongs in adult court. But I especially don’t believe that determination of whether someone should be in an adult court or a juvenile court should depend upon someone waiving their constitutional right to a trial. We brought this to the incumbent, she listened to us, she listened to what we said. But to this day, that practice still goes on in the courtroom. So I don’t think people realize that we’re using the decision to have a kid go from adult court to juvenile court as part of plea negotiations to make people waive their rights to a trial. Going back further, I think in 2016, and 2020, especially on the Democratic side of the aisle, during the presidential election, there was a lot of talk about the 1994 crime bill, and mass incarceration, mandatory minimums, but most people have their cases go through the state court system. And every single day, across the country, people are facing mandatory minimum charges. And every single day in Prince George’s County, people are being charged with mandatory minimum charges. But here’s what’s important: we can protect the public safety without ever using those tools of mass incarceration, because for any alleged criminal incident, there could be 5678 different criminal statutes that could apply to that conduct. Some of them could carry mandatory minimums, and some of them wouldn’t. So we can just use the charges that don’t carry mandatory minimums, and never use that tool of mass incarceration. The way I describe it is, you know, it’s a hammer, but we can choose to not pick up that hammer. And there’s so many little things like that throughout the Criminal Code that’s happening in our courtrooms every day that I want to tell people about and want to say, Hey, I don’t think this is justice. And when I talk to voters, they’re like, you know what, I never thought of it like that.
Josh Hoe
You brought up a couple of topics right there, one of which is how juveniles get charged. You know, pretty recently, the Supreme Court in Jones versus Mississippi undermined some of the previous court precedent creating relief for sentenced to life without parole. And a lot of the reasons that the earlier court decisions gave were that kids’ brains aren’t at the same level, they aren’t as mature, they make worse decisions. And that people grow out of that. But that decision did leave some leeway for states to be more proactive. And one of your platforms on your website is that you oppose sentencing kids as adults. So do you want to talk about how you see that issue and what you kind of think juvenile justice should look like, especially since your wife worked in that area for a long time, too?
Stanford Fraser
Definitely. So thankfully, this past year, or this year, actually, Maryland passed a bill banning life without parole for kids, for juveniles. So you know, thank goodness for that. Just in time, given what’s happened with the Supreme Court relatively recently. I think the way I look at it is just like you said, the data shows that the frontal lobe which impacts decision-making, isn’t fully-developed until 21, or even 25. I think some states, like Connecticut, are actually expanding their juvenile courts to include individuals who are 19, or even 20. And I think if you look at some Western European nations, people 21 and under can be part of their juvenile legal system equivalent. Just understanding how the brain develops and how decision-making works for people as they grow older. For me, knowing that research, right, looking at some peer nations, looking at some other states in the nation, I don’t ever want to put a child in adult court. Because when we talk about the school-to-prison pipeline, to me, when we’re prosecuting kids as adults, that’s the school-to prison-pipeline. So let’s end it.
Josh Hoe
And so what do you think is appropriate? How should we deal with children who’ve committed particularly, or even not particularly egregious acts? What is the right way for a justice system? How can you right size juvenile justice?
Stanford Fraser
That’s important. So I think it’s important to note that there’s been Supreme Court cases, Supreme Court precedent, and opinions where they said that rehabilitation is not the main purpose of the adult criminal system, right? But it is the main purpose of the juvenile system.
Josh Hoe
I can definitely attest to the fact that the adult criminal justice system isn’t very focused on rehabilitation. That’s true.
Stanford Fraser
And it’s important to know because, as you say, we know that kids grow older, right, who you are at 15 is different from who you are at 30, or 45, and 60. And that’s why the juvenile system is designed to get people resources, to get people counseling. So I think that’s a good difference there. And I also think we need to be … there are things that, I’m relatively young, but when I was a kid that were handled, maybe through the school system, that’s now going into the criminal system. I don’t think some of those offenses need to go into the criminal legal system.
Josh Hoe
You also mentioned a couple minutes ago that you oppose mandatory minimums. So you talked about this a little bit, but could you talk a little more about how you think charging documents and sentencing might look in a world without mandatory minimums?
Stanford Fraser
A great example of mandatory minimums are … confidential information in my cases, in my ethical duty as a lawyer. There are situations where maybe there’s three, four individuals in a car and one firearm is found, and they charged every single person with possession of that firearm. And if you’re facing a mandatory minimum, right, that means if you’re found guilty, you could get a minimum five year sentence. And I’ve had cases where I talk to clients and say, hey, maybe I think this is an “A” case. This is an “A” case, and I described it as an “A” in school. We just need to get 90% you have a case and you get given 90%. That’s an A in school, that’s a 10% chance you could be found guilty at trial. Where you’re facing that harsh mandatory minimum, individuals say what if I just plead to a lesser offense, even though I know I’m innocent, even though I know I have legal defenses, because of that, because of the incentive structure of mandatory minimum sentencing. So that’s why I’d say it’s a tool of mass incarceration. Another big problem with the mandatory minimum sentences are, when people are found guilty or plead guilty to those charges, there’s no discretion for the judge to treat that individual as the actual individual. And it’s how we get these long sentences that are fueling mass incarceration. It’s one of the reasons why in the State of Maryland, right, black people make up 31% of the population, but 70% of the people in our prisons and jails, it’s because of policies like this.
Josh Hoe
You just raised another issue, which I think is a big part of mass incarceration, which is plea bargaining; as many as 96% of all cases never go to trial, because of plea bargaining. What, what’s your take on the prosecutor’s role in terms of pleas? And again, how would a system look, how do you think a system becomes right-sized in a world of plea bargaining if at all?
Stanford Fraser
I think the “ if at all” is a really important question with how large the system is, right? People say it wouldn’t function if every single person literally had a case, right? There’s so many people that are going through the system, that’s part of my platform saying, look at some of these offenses: trespass, disorderly conduct, giving a nickname to a police officer, misdemeanor drug possession, that we just need to remove from the system completely. So get those offenses out of the system. And then we can put more resources to the more serious offenses that do endanger the public safety, but then people would actually adjudicate their rights through trials. And that’s one of the rights, a jury trial, an important function of our legal system, that so many people waive; but when we get rid of the nonsense, then it’s more time for people to actually adjudicate their rights. But I think that is a really important point. And I think it’s like, honestly, it’s really hard. And I don’t want to oversell how we can change the system to reduce the amount of plea bargaining that’s happening.
Josh Hoe
And what about the use of the trial penalty, which is, as the listeners may not know, but is using the threat of keeping the entire charging document, if someone refuses a plea, going to the mat on all the charges, and for the maximum weight of all the charges. Do you have any thoughts on the use of the trial penalty, or what’s called the trial penalty?
Stanford Fraser
Of course, I think it’s wrong. I think one important part of my platform that gets rid of that, is getting rid of those mandatory minimum sentences where we’re stacking charges, right, we’re having 10 charges for really the same alleged incident. So that’s one way you can help reduce the trial tax. The second thing is just to have a memo on sentencing and what the sentencing policies for our office will be. In Maryland, we have something called the sentencing guidelines, where based upon person’s age, their history, etc, they give a range of where that sentence should be, from a high number to a low number. And part of what I will do is have a sentencing memo that says, you have to ask for the bottom range of that sentencing guideline. Because I feel like the guidelines in Maryland are part of why we had such long sentences. And as part of what’s fueled mass incarceration.
Josh Hoe
Given my position, it’s odd, but I’ve actually talked to quite a large number of people either running for prosecutor, or who are currently prosecutors on the podcast, and I always ask some version of this question. You know, one thing we’ve seen a lot of discussion about lately is police reform. And prosecutors offices, have a simpatico, a sympathetic relationship and work hand-in-hand with police. And yet, with an instance of District Attorney Krasner, we saw the police union literally running the campaign against his re-election. I think sometimes it becomes a tough relationship between someone who’s running on a more reform platform, and traditional policing. How would you approach working with the police and resolving some of these potential tensions if you were to win the election?
Stanford Fraser
So of course, I would meet with people, but I never want to compromise my vision of justice that I hope that voters agree with and empower me to implement in Prince George’s County. I think in Prince George’s County, it’s really important to mention something, a lot of things, that are happening locally, and maybe people don’t know about. But a year, maybe two years ago, the ACLU sued the Police Department for basically racial bias in hiring, promotion, as well as in disciplining officers. And because of that, there’s been an examination of the police department with the FOP working with internal affairs to try to get people off. It’s been then a whole bunch of officers that have been suspended. And I point out one officer who’s recently been charged federally for tax evasion is Lieutenant Scott Finn, but if you look at his history, in 1999, he shot and killed an unarmed person; in 2001 him and his partner during arrest, beat someone, and that person would ended up dying within an hour of going to the jail. And I say this person shouldn’t have been on the police force for the last 20 years. Right. He shouldn’t have been on the police force to get indicted this year. But I think it’s important to mention him because we had when he was involved in criminal cases, when those types of officers that have a history of misconduct, have a history of being accused of racial bias, when we ask for those records in court, as criminal defense attorneys, two people come to court saying we don’t have a right to those records: someone from the County Attorney’s Office representing the police union, and the prosecutor assigned to the case. And to me, when prosecutors fight the high police misconduct in criminal cases, they create the conditions that lead to police misconduct, let it fester and harm the community. I think an example of this is Derek Chauvin, the person who killed George Floyd, he had 22 use of force or internal affairs investigative reports against him before he killed George Floyd, [if] we would have stopped him earlier, we could have stopped more harm in our community.
Josh Hoe
And so what you’re talking about, I think you’ve talked about in your platform, is publishing Brady Lists, and do you want to say anything more about that? And is there a legal prohibition from publishing them or something that stops you from being able to publish them? Because I think someone mentioned that, [they were] arguing that that was the case.
Stanford Fraser
I would release – they call it the Brady List – which just means a list of officers that have potential credibility issues. Maybe they have been investigated in the past for use of force issues, or racial bias issues, or other types of misconduct, maybe truthfulness issues, and maybe there’s even investigative materials that have to be turned over to the defense in any case they’re involved in – so I might go on a bit of a rant. I hope that’s okay.
Josh Hoe
Oh, rants are fine. I like them.
Stanford Fraser
So about two months ago, there was a local media report about the list, with the incumbent talking about how she’s now created this list. It was recorded that there are 28 officers on this list, and 15 of them aren’t called as witnesses in court. My immediate reaction was, it sounds like half the list is still being called as witnesses in court. And as part of this local media report, they were interviewing this officer who was working part-time security at a party when there was a noise complaint. Now the officers arrived, when, as an officer working part-time security identified himself, Hey, I’m an officer as well, what’s going on? How can I help? This officer responding to the scene basically tackles him, assaults him and arrests him. The officer that was working part-time security knows his rights. So he sues for violation of his civil rights. This other officer responded, instead of coming to court and saying, You know what, I made a mistake, he basically gets on the witness stand and lies about what happened. Luckily for this officer working-part time security, other offices working part-time security backed up his side of the events. And because it’s 2020-2021, there’s video, people taking Instagram videos, Snapchat videos, that captured part of the incident. Why is this important? Why am I mentioning this? Because during the interview, talking to him and his lawyer, they mentioned that this list of officers with issues is private, it’s secret. [That] we don’t know if this officer that’s a known liar and a known abuser is on this Brady list is even more important. We don’t know how many individuals have convictions, or God forbid, how many people are sitting inside a cage right now, based upon the testimony of this officer, a known liar and a known abuser. So not only do I want to publicly release this list, so people can know who these individuals are [who are] harming community members, I want this list out so the public can hold me accountable and say, What are you doing about people that are in jail or people that have convictions based upon officers on this list? It’s going to be public. We’re going to review those cases over the last 30 years, in which those officers have been involved, and if those officers aren’t credible to testify, and those convictions aren’t credible, either. And with this being public, the community can hold me responsible, say, hey, you said you’re going to do this. This list is public. You haven’t investigated Officer John Doe’s case yet.
Josh Hoe
Are there any reasons, legal reasons, why you can’t publish it? I don’t know the law in this area.
Stanford Fraser
That’s important. So I think there’s a distinction, right? So some of those internal affairs records are considered confidential personnel records. When it comes to you know, Public Information Act requests … in Maryland it’s called MPA, the Maryland Public Information Act. So sometimes the documents that maybe the prosecutor has reviewed, added the officer to that list; they can’t review those actual documents. But the list itself is something created by the State’s Attorneys’ Office, not covered by the Public Information Act and is not considered a confidential personnel record and can be released to the public.
Josh Hoe
So we’re conducting this interview on June 3, 2021. And literally today, a new report came out which starts with this sentence: “American prosecutors are active lobbyists who routinely support making the criminal law harsher”. I saw that you promised on your platform to remove Prince George’s County from the Maryland State’s Attorneys’ Association. Can you talk a little bit more about this and your reasons for why you want to remove yourself, your county from this list?
Stanford Fraser
It wasn’t until relatively recently that I learned the power of these associations – Maryland’s is called the State’s Attorneys’ Association – and the role they play in shaping the law here. I think one story I like to tell is last year after the killing of George Floyd, after the killing of Breonna Taylor, there were certain community events and we were holding one with some of the elected prosecutors across the state. And we were asking about different reform proposals and one of the proposals that was asked about was the bill, a ban on all no-knock warrants. And I sat there as the incumbent State’s Attorney and other State’s Attorneys across the state [were] saying no, no, no, we don’t need to get rid of no-knock warrants, we need to implement this reform, that I think is rather weak, instead. Then it comes back to this session – in Maryland the legislature is part-time; they meet between January and April, you can imagine the bill to ban no-knock warrants was not passed. But the reform, the weak reform that was appointed by the State’s Attorneys’ Association was passed instead. There’s legislation to mimic what happened in Oregon, to basically decriminalize all misdemeanor possession of drugs that was opposed by the State’s Attorneys’ Association, you’re getting a theme. So this, so constantly, as we’re fighting for some of these reforms, we find out that the state’s attorney association is against them. So not only are they executing these laws that have created mass incarceration, but they’re now creating some of these laws. So I think it’s important to remove Prince George’s County from this Association, and then instead advocate for reforms that my community wants and desperately needs.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, I’m being sarcastic here. But to some extent, one of the things that they always say is “we don’t make the laws, we enforce the laws” as a general rule, in my experience, with State’s Attorneys’ Association. But the truth is, they are often at the table when the laws are being debated. And so yeah, it is important to address this issue. But I think some might say that, by removing your county, you might also reduce your ability to make change in that State’s Attorneys’ Association. Is that fair? Or why do you think standing alone is a better solution?
Stanford Fraser
I think I would disagree, because I can then advocate for some of those policies that my community wants. When I was at this committee meeting, there was like, No, we want to get rid of no-knock warrants. There’s not just a problem in Louisville, it is a problem here in Maryland and in Prince George’s County, but the State’s Attorneys’ Association ended up being a barrier to that bill, and there’s other reforms … no knock-warrants isn’t necessarily something that impacts the Criminal Code, per se. So you see that the State’s Attorney Association, that it is not only shaping criminal law, but it’s also shaping police law, and what type of police reforms can pass. So I think it’d be important to leave that association and actually advocate for the things that my community members are saying that they want.
Josh Hoe
You mentioned no knock-warrants a couple of times. So I feel like I should at least ask . . . a lot of the things I’ve seen people argue about over time, is that one of the potential problems with getting rid of no-knock warrants is that they just come up with a different pretext to do the same thing. Like, maybe they don’t knock, but they announce themselves, or they do a bunch of other things, or they have a grace period or whatever. Do you think it’s enough to just get rid of the no-knock warrants? Or do you think that that reform would have to go farther?
Stanford Fraser
I think it is a good first step. But yes, there’s other reforms that need to be done. I think in Maryland, for at least a four-year period, there were actually reporting requirements for all basically SWAT raids. And in Maryland, most I think, like 80-80% of warrants are executed by the local SWAT departments. So I think that type of data collection is important to try to see what the trends are to see what reforms are needed to be implemented.
Josh Hoe
And since most no-knock warrants are usually drug-related, what are your thoughts on the war on drugs and drug prosecutions, as someone who’s going to be walking – theoretically walking – into a prosecutor’s office?
Stanford Fraser
I think if someone’s being charged with a misdemeanor drug possession case, there’s probably three categories: they’re experimenting, they are doing it recreationally, or maybe there’s a substance use disorder. And I think in neither of those circumstances someone should be caged or even threatened to be caged. So I want to dismiss all of those cases.
Josh Hoe
I’ve been sober for myself for nearly close to somewhere between 25 and 30 years from substance abuse. And one of the things I remember from those days is that a lot of people who meet those three categories that you were talking about, sometimes dabble in dealing because they, their financial pressures, whatever. I know, legally, we make this distinction between users and dealers, but I’m not sure it always works out that way, in the real world of how use occurs. Do you have any thoughts about this distinction between dealing and using?
Stanford Fraser
Well, that’s a really good important point, I think, like you said, some of that depends on how much of the alleged controlled dangerous substance – that’s the legal term – is found on an individual, to try to find that line? I think part of it is, once we get rid of the misdemeanor drug possession charges, that leaves room for these diversion programs for some of those people that are perhaps being charged with possession with intent to distribute with dealing but actually, it’s really they had their own, they have their own substance use disorder. And we want to provide them with services. I think what really colors my policy overall on this is, I’ve been blessed with some really great educational opportunities. During my time at Howard, and during my time at Harvard Law. I’ve seen people that also partake in these drugs. Then I’ve also seen as a public defender, I’ve seen my clients charged criminally for some of the same drugs I’ve seen classmates use in my educational experiences. And that contradiction to me is not justice.
Josh Hoe
Well, I mean, I think we’ve had multiple presidents who admitted to using substances that could have gotten them put away for a decent stretch. You mentioned harm reduction earlier, and you’ve talked about diversion programs. How do you think harm reduction functions? And does the prosecutor have a role in harm reduction with drug prosecutions?
Stanford Fraser
I think they definitely have a role. One example is in Maryland, we’ve been fighting to get overdose prevention sites implemented here for the past, maybe six, seven years. And every year that bill, the bill dies, part of it is elected prosecutors lobbying against this legislation. Right. I mentioned before there was a bill to mirror what happened in Oregon, to decriminalize misdemeanor possession of all drugs, right. That was opposed by the State Attorney Association. I think, in order to implement some of these harm reduction policies, you’re going to need elected prosecutors that say no, actually, we are in favor of some of these policies, especially in regards to drug prosecutions, but with other types of prosecutions as well.
Josh Hoe
To change the subject a little bit, we’ve seen a lot of folks start to move towards the criminalization of homelessness over the last couple of years, it’s become a frequent media topic. And a lot of talk shows and the media have been spinning this up. I think we probably both agree that this is wrong. What would your approach as Prosecuting Attorney be?
Stanford Fraser
There’ll be some of those low-level offenses like trespass [and] disorderly conduct that we’re just going to dismiss outright, and we’re going to try to work with some of our local groups. In Prince George’s County, there’s really only one men’s shelter. And there’s problems with it; we want to work with those groups to try to get them resources, to halfway houses, get them resources, to housing. I think, man, I wish I would have prepared with the article about Housing First; I think that’s the policy that actually helps, like cheaper than when we’re talking about arresting people, trying to throw people in cages and you’re paying for three meals a day, you’re paying to house them. So not only is it inhumane, but [it] is more expensive than just giving them housing in the first place.
Josh Hoe
Now, one of the main drivers of arrests, at least in my state, is arrests for driver’s license suspensions that are unrelated to risky driving. What do you think about this form of criminal justice? What do you think about this? What do you think about this form of criminal justice debt?
Stanford Fraser
I think it’s something we need to get rid of, especially now with the pandemic, right? People having disruptions in jobs, disruptions in their economic stability; that’s a problem, that we’re seeing even more of these incidents, and then someone who works in the suburb, people need to drive the work. But then if your license is suspended, you can’t get to work. And so if you can’t get to work, you then can’t pay your tickets. Given what we know about the discrepancy of what type of cars are being stopped and whose cars are being stopped – it’s important to, I think we need what’s called a Tax Jubilee, we need to have a Driving Suspended Jubilee for a lot of these offenses where people are being threatened with caging because of suspended licenses. I will say though, the Maryland legislature has made some changes to the code where for certain types of driver’s license suspensions, most of them financial, you cannot go to jail. But one of the problems is if you miss court on those offenses, they can still ask for bench warrants asking for your arrest. So I would definitely eliminate asking for bench warrants for people’s arrest for those driving suspended offenses if they miss a court because they didn’t get notice of it. But I think it is important to mention that the Maryland legislature at least tried to do some things to correct this problem.
Josh Hoe
So we’ve talked about a lot of serious subjects. Since people are getting to know you, hopefully through listening to this, what’s something people might not know about you that would be good for them to know?
Stanford Fraser
You know, I’m really into A Song of Ice and Fire Game of Thrones. I’ve read the books, I read the Dunk and Egg tails. Sometimes you might catch me tweeting about it. Oh, yeah.
Josh Hoe
I don’t know if you know this, but as a writer, I actually was very successful doing writing on Game of Thrones. So that’s also a passion of mine. That’s interesting. Oh, Angie. Alright, let’s chat about it. What’s your favorite subject? Let’s get into it. Oh, you know, I mean, I wrote about it for a really long time. So you know, I mean, in a sense, my biggest thing was that I was a fairly big critic of the last several seasons of the television show, for a lot of reasons. I think a lot of people were, but maybe about a season earlier than most people. I was talking about real problems with continuity. So I think that’s what a lot of my writing was about; deeper criticisms than just, oh, this stinks. But there’s a lot of that, but I’m a really big fan of the universe that he created. Have all the books have the Dunk and Egg, have the history of Westeros have, you know, I have all of them. And I’ve been reading them for years. I actually read, the reason I got into it, was because the first holding cell I was ever in, one of the books was in there and had the cover torn off. And I didn’t even know what it was. And that was the first time I ever started reading George RR Martin, which is kind of a strange way to get into it. But that’s what got me into it.
Stanford Fraser
Yeah, I mean, his books are long. So it’s a good way to pass time. Can I do something that might make me lose some people, but I still want to try to make sure, though I agree with you that some of the storytelling and quality of storytelling declined on the last couple of seasons. But I, to this day, I will defend the series finale to death. I think some of the main protagonists all got good conclusions to their arc [that] made sense. And that’s the thesis statement. I can go in deeper, but I want people to know that if you really want
Josh Hoe
Well, I would definitely agree that it doesn’t bother me that brand one. It doesn’t bother me. But there was a lot of stuff along the way that was pretty troubling to get there. I’ve not, you know, I think they always said that, you know, they sat down with Benioff and Weiss sat down with George RR Martin. And he didn’t tell them how he was getting to the end, but he told them the end, and he calls what he does gardening. And you know, so they were doing their gardening, and he was doing his gardening. And you know, maybe we’ll never see what his gardening was, because we’re still waiting for the damn next book. But, you know, for me, it wasn’t really the ending that bothered me, it was everything that led to the end.
Stanford Fraser
I hear that but keep hope alive. We’re getting a new book this year than the next.
Josh Hoe
Well, I had a theory for a long time that was proven wrong, that he was actually mad about the way the series was going, and that he was going to get his revenge by publishing in the first December because the books have always come out in December. And I was very, very, very wrong about that.
Stanford Fraser
No, we’re gonna get this book this year. The next year, we’re getting the house of dragons prequel seasons 2023 we’re gonna get a new Dunk and Egg book and then 2024 we’re gonna get the series, this the final book, The seventh book in the series, you gotta you gotta be speaking into existence?
Josh Hoe
Well, I like your optimism. And I’ll definitely hope that you’re right. So, to go back to criminal justice stuff, if you had the necessary power to make any changes that you wanted – and I know that you have a platform – but I mean, if you have like a magic wand kind of power, what would our criminal justice system look like?
Stanford Fraser
I think if I had a magic wand, I would attack a lot of the things before we get to the criminal justice system, right. I speak about Housing First, I would buy up all these random hotels and house people there that are facing homelessness. So not even the opportunity to be dragged into the criminal legal system. I would implement harm reduction policies when it comes to drug possession and other offenses across the system. But I think more importantly, my guiding ethos, my guiding ethics would be that caging human beings is a very serious thing; that we need to create, that the goal is to create a world in which we don’t cage human beings, right? We’re not there. But that’s the ultimate goal that we’re fighting towards every single day.
Josh Hoe
This year, I’m asking people if there are any criminal justice related books they might recommend. Do you have any personal favorites?
Stanford Fraser
I think maybe Ghettoside, released maybe four or five years ago, maybe longer than that, but I liked that book a lot.
Josh Hoe
Yeah, it’s a great book. John Pfaff loves that book a lot. I always ask the same last question. What did I mess up? What question should I have asked but did not.
Stanford Fraser
You didn’t mess up at all. You were great. The only time you messed up was your pessimism about getting the next book The Winds of Winter. That’s the only thing you did wrong.
Josh Hoe
Well, I hope you’re right. I hope I’m wrong. You know that I’m rooting for you to be right on that one. So thanks so much for doing this; it’s a real pleasure to have you on DecarcerationNation.
Stanford Fraser
Once again, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed today’s interview.
Josh Hoe
And now my take.
Today I’m wishing my friends at The Appeal good luck. As many who listened to my interview several weeks ago with Emily Galvin Almanza and Alanna Silvin know, there was a battle between the leadership and the writers at The Appeal. This ultimately led to what has formerly been called The Appeal shutting down, but the writers have banded together to try to restart The Appeal as a writer-led nonprofit outlet. Look, over the last few years The Appeal has been one of the few consistent voices challenging tough on crime narrative. This has been a very important media voice challenging police, politicians, conventional wisdom and prosecutors in the press. I wish them all the luck in the world in finding a way towards solid funding in this very challenging media environment. Everyone can help them out, and I will include a link to how to support the new Appeal in the show notes. I don’t usually do this but if you have the means, please do support them. They’re doing important work in the criminal justice space.
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